UK Landlord Forum / Life

I'm thinking of starting an agency which gets quotes from contractors for other landlords. I would appreciate anyone's feedback on this idea as I am still considering whether to do this.

I will do the work remotely - I will e-mail/call multiple contractors to schedule an appointment and will coordinate with the tenants. I will forward the relevant quotes with the full invoice attached.

I won't charge a margin on top like agents, and will offer my services for a monthly fee of around £20 per flat

Any feedback is welcome. What is everyone's opinion on the idea? What do you think of the pricing?

Quote from: MixrProp on October 10, 2024, 09:31:12 PMWhat do you think of the pricing?

Cost = £240/year per flat

N = Number of times a contractor is required per year per flat

N    Cost per quote
0    £240 (for nothing)
1    £240
2    £120
3    £80

Even if I had needed to engage contractors 3 times a year (something that never happened), a cost of £80 per engagement just to get quotes would be too much.

Good luck - but I doubt that you'll find many people wanting to sign up for an ongoing subscription at £240/year

The father of a tenant tried to do something similar years ago.  I was not interested,  and the idea came to nothing. 

I think that even if  you got any takers you would have the same problems we all have,  tradesmen booked up months ahead,  calls not returned,  no shows for inspections etc.  Sorry, but I don't think this would work. If you have any DIY skills you would make plenty doing those little jobs that others won' t take on. 

It's almost as if you buy this 'service' and then sit there wanting things to go wrong, plenty, so it can be worth the extra expense. It has 'insurance' vibes all over it.

And what makes you qualified to do this? Do you have quantity surveying-like skills? What extensive contacts do you have, from what part of your history, will you get quotes and critique them, or comment on them, for how reasonable they are, or will you just be a pass-thru? The value-add is nebulous in the extreme (so far). Far from simplifying things, it feels like just another cog in the machine, another component to go wrong, risk miscommunication and so-on.

We are a population of naysayers, though... follow your dreams (weird dreams, but I'll not judge beyond that).

As specified it would not fly, I would save your money.

Thanks for the answer, that's a fair point.

Do you think it would be useful for people with multiple properties or older flats, where something goes wrong more frequently than three times?

Also, the main value add in my opinion would be in saving you the time needed to do it!

Quote from: heavykarma on October 11, 2024, 08:13:25 AMThe father of a tenant tried to do something similar years ago.  I was not interested,  and the idea came to nothing. 

I think that even if  you got any takers you would have the same problems we all have,  tradesmen booked up months ahead,  calls not returned,  no shows for inspections etc.  Sorry, but I don't think this would work. If you have any DIY skills you would make plenty doing those little jobs that others won' t take on. 

So do you feel its not really a huge problem for you? In terms of its not the problem of booking the contractors, but the contractors being too busy or being unreliable?

Quote from: Hippogriff on October 11, 2024, 10:42:21 AMIt's almost as if you buy this 'service' and then sit there wanting things to go wrong, plenty, so it can be worth the extra expense. It has 'insurance' vibes all over it.

And what makes you qualified to do this? Do you have quantity surveying-like skills? What extensive contacts do you have, from what part of your history, will you get quotes and critique them, or comment on them, for how reasonable they are, or will you just be a pass-thru? The value-add is nebulous in the extreme (so far). Far from simplifying things, it feels like just another cog in the machine, another component to go wrong, risk miscommunication and so-on.

We are a population of naysayers, though... follow your dreams (weird dreams, but I'll not judge beyond that).

I would act mainly act as a pass-through and forward the quotes to the landlord. From my experience booking the contractors involves constant calling and etc, so the value-add from my services would be from saving people time.

If booking contractors takes you more than 12 hours a year and you value your time at £20/hour, you have easily made your money back.

Quote from: David on October 11, 2024, 03:12:35 PMAs specified it would not fly, I would save your money.

Any feedback or ways to improve, would appreciate it mate

Quote from: MixrProp on October 13, 2024, 07:59:00 PMIf booking contractors takes you more than 12 hours a year and you value your time at £20/hour, you have easily made your money back.

If that's your premise, then it doesn't fly. I self-manage to retain control - not pass it over to another dubious third-party trying to 'remora' off me.

The only point of attractiveness I can think of - and I've tried - is that the money spent on this could be an Allowable Expense.

All other aspects appear to be based on the premise that the Landlord paying is a mark, who doesn't particularly care about their money or the experience of their Tenants. Why would any Landlord hand over this task to someone who hasn't claimed they have any professional expertise and is framing their "value-add" in being a pass-thru? What I think has happened here is the OP has tried to come up with an easy way of making a living based off, well, not much... there is no mention of any experience or skills in this space that would make the customer think you could do it better... if you were to cite years of doing this and, even, negotiating the quotes for price and appropriateness then it'd be a whole different ball-game and it'd be a different offering. This is much more like some kind of secretarial-pool / message-taking service as it stands. It feels kinda predatory too, in some way, although I'm sure that intention is not there.

People with a lot of properties will usually be using a managing agent anyway. Have you worked in this field, and kept your contacts from that time?  You don' t mention the area you are in. Where I am ( Warwickshire)  the combination of Brexit and Covid caused a lot of foreign tradespeople to go back home. One I used for years decided to join his wife' s catering business to have less stress.

You would be lucky to get one person to give you a quote round here, never mind three. A neighbour in her 50' s has had scaffolding put up, bought herself a harness and is painting the outside of her house. The only person who turned up quoted her 13k, clearly did not want the job. Sorry,  but the whole idea seems lame, especially when so many landlords are selling up and those that remain are feeling the pinch.     

I don't understand what benefit I get for the monthly fee. What you're suggesting is what I pay someone to do already. And they're not going to discount their fees (which cover other things as well as this service).

You'd need to be able to show that there would be a saving to me at least equivalent to the cost to you.

Quote from: Hippogriff on October 14, 2024, 08:17:58 AMThe only point of attractiveness I can think of - and I've tried - is that the money spent on this could be an Allowable Expense.

All other aspects appear to be based on the premise that the Landlord paying is a mark, who doesn't particularly care about their money or the experience of their Tenants. Why would any Landlord hand over this task to someone who hasn't claimed they have any professional expertise and is framing their "value-add" in being a pass-thru? What I think has happened here is the OP has tried to come up with an easy way of making a living based off, well, not much... there is no mention of any experience or skills in this space that would make the customer think you could do it better... if you were to cite years of doing this and, even, negotiating the quotes for price and appropriateness then it'd be a whole different ball-game and it'd be a different offering. This is much more like some kind of secretarial-pool / message-taking service as it stands. It feels kinda predatory too, in some way, although I'm sure that intention is not there.

So would you say a bigger value-add would be if the service also included negotiating with the contractors to trim the quote or use experience to find out if it is the best deal?

Quote from: heavykarma on October 14, 2024, 08:39:58 AMPeople with a lot of properties will usually be using a managing agent anyway. Have you worked in this field, and kept your contacts from that time?  You don' t mention the area you are in. Where I am ( Warwickshire)  the combination of Brexit and Covid caused a lot of foreign tradespeople to go back home. One I used for years decided to join his wife' s catering business to have less stress.

You would be lucky to get one person to give you a quote round here, never mind three. A neighbour in her 50' s has had scaffolding put up, bought herself a harness and is painting the outside of her house. The only person who turned up quoted her 13k, clearly did not want the job. Sorry,  but the whole idea seems lame, especially when so many landlords are selling up and those that remain are feeling the pinch.     

I am based in London - there is less of a problem with that, although it is hard to get a good contractor in.

So there is a general lack of supply of contractors in your area?

Quote from: jpkeates on October 14, 2024, 09:31:52 AMI don't understand what benefit I get for the monthly fee. What you're suggesting is what I pay someone to do already. And they're not going to discount their fees (which cover other things as well as this service).

You'd need to be able to show that there would be a saving to me at least equivalent to the cost to you.

The value add would be from time-saved for you. For instance, if you value your time at £20/hour or greater, I would save you the time by doing the work myself, giving you a range of options and then messaging the tenant to check up on the work. Meanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

There's plenty to be said for tenacity. It's good that you don't give-up straight away in the face of universally negative feedback. But, at some point, it might be best to realise - and accept - this doesn't feel like it has any legs.

Five experienced long- term landlords have responded,  and not one thinks this is going to work.   There are also several free online services that promise quotes from local trades if you describe the job that need doing.  I don' t know how reliable they are, but presumably you feel your idea is better. 

There is only one way to find out. If we are all wrong then come back and tell us.   

Quote from: MixrProp on October 14, 2024, 06:54:01 PMThe value add would be from time-saved for you. For instance, if you value your time at £20/hour or greater, I would save you the time by doing the work myself, giving you a range of options and then messaging the tenant to check up on the work. Meanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

So you'd have to save me one hour per property per month for me to break even. I have one maintenance event per property per annum on average.

And most of them are simple "x has happened, so I call me regular electrician/plumber/handyman and it's sorted." Maybe once a year I get something out of the ordinary - decking needs replacing or a problem with a roof. That probably takes 30 minutes actual work (plus the time to make payment and do the admin).

If you were charging £1 per property per month and the service was excellent it might be an alternative to paying an agent for some landlords, but otherwise not a chance. Or maybe a £15 per event fee.

And given your location, you'd be no use to me anyway.

I use a letting agent, so they look after this sort of thing. Landlords who don't use agents generally have a local handyman or other trades that they've used before for the routine stuff. The niche between those two doesn't strike me as particularly voluminous - and you'd need a sod of a lot of £20 subs every month to make a living out of it.

I think you are fooling yourself to think that you have a business, you don't, for the reasons explained ad nauseam.

I have said all I am going to say here.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 13, 2024, 07:59:35 PM

Quote from: David on October 11, 2024, 03:12:35 PMAs specified it would not fly, I would save your money.

Any feedback or ways to improve, would appreciate it mate

Quote from: MixrProp on October 14, 2024, 06:54:01 PMMeanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

It is not a fixed fee of £20 for the job, no matter how tough (or easy) it is.

It is a fee of £20 a month (i.e £240 a year) for 0, 1, 2, or at a stretch, 3 jobs if you have a property (or a tenant) with several problems to fix.

So, as I said previously, it's:

  N    Cost per job
  0    £240 (for nothing done)
  1    £240
  2    £120
  3    £80

For the business to be successful, you have to convince landlords that this level of outlay year on year represents good value for money.

Your arguments are not convincing.

Quote from: jpkeates on October 15, 2024, 09:37:22 AM

Quote from: MixrProp on October 14, 2024, 06:54:01 PMThe value add would be from time-saved for you. For instance, if you value your time at £20/hour or greater, I would save you the time by doing the work myself, giving you a range of options and then messaging the tenant to check up on the work. Meanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

So you'd have to save me one hour per property per month for me to break even. I have one maintenance event per property per annum on average.

And most of them are simple "x has happened, so I call me regular electrician/plumber/handyman and it's sorted." Maybe once a year I get something out of the ordinary - decking needs replacing or a problem with a roof. That probably takes 30 minutes actual work (plus the time to make payment and do the admin).

If you were charging £1 per property per month and the service was excellent it might be an alternative to paying an agent for some landlords, but otherwise not a chance. Or maybe a £15 per event fee.

And given your location, you'd be no use to me anyway.

Thanks that's actually super helpful. Do you feel that is the case for other landlords in terms of the frequency of contractor events?

My property required regular upkeep in the beginning so that was a lot of hassle, but as the issues got fixed, it required less and less due to going with quality contractors.

Quote from: Simon Pambin on October 15, 2024, 10:31:03 AMI use a letting agent, so they look after this sort of thing. Landlords who don't use agents generally have a local handyman or other trades that they've used before for the routine stuff. The niche between those two doesn't strike me as particularly voluminous - and you'd need a sod of a lot of £20 subs every month to make a living out of it.

Thanks - yes that was one of my concerns that the market is actually not that big to make it feasible to do full-time

Quote from: HandyMan on October 15, 2024, 04:09:50 PM

Quote from: MixrProp on October 14, 2024, 06:54:01 PMMeanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

It is not a fixed fee of £20 for the job, no matter how tough (or easy) it is.

It is a fee of £20 a month (i.e £240 a year) for 0, 1, 2, or at a stretch, 3 jobs if you have a property (or a tenant) with several problems to fix.

So, as I said previously, it's:

  N    Cost per job
  0    £240 (for nothing done)
  1    £240
  2    £120
  3    £80

For the business to be successful, you have to convince landlords that this level of outlay year on year represents good value for money.

Your arguments are not convincing.

What would convince you?

If a landlord doesn't have any jobs, I am unsure that they would sign up for the service. My ideal customer would be someone with a lot of jobs happening frequently, where they see that this will have a return on their time. Any reasonable person would do similar calculations in their head, and thus for them it wouldn't make sense to use the service. For instance, if I may ask, how many times a year do you require contractor call-outs?

I' m out.

Anyone with a lot of jobs happening frequently has either found a solution or is skilled enough to do the work. You don't seem to be offering anything for the fees proposed.

People pay for services to meet needs or solve problems. The need is already met, because this work happens now. So you need to be solving a problem, and there isn't one.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMMy ideal customer would be someone with a lot of jobs happening frequently, where they see that this will have a return on their time.

If they have lots of jobs, then once they have found a reliable builder, handyman/woman, electrician, plumber/boiler-servicer, etc, they will keep going to the same contractor and will have little or no further use for your services.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMFor instance, if I may ask, how many times a year do you require contractor call-outs?

None now, as I have sold the properties.

But looking at my property diary for the final 3 years of ownership...

Property A (1 bedroom flat):
1 x Electrician for EICR renewal [1]
1 x Boiler replacement [2]
2 x Boiler service / Gas Safety check [3]
1 x Replace broken window handle [4]

Property B (3 bedroom house):
1 x Oven replacement [5]
1 x Re-felting flat roof of garage [6]
3 x Boiler service / Gas Safety check [7]

Notes:
 -  Property A and B were 80 miles apart so I had to use different contractors for each.

[1] I engaged the same local guy who did the EICR five years previously.
     Total arrangement time 5 minutes on WhatsApp.

[2] I got a quote from: the local plumber, from British Gas, and from Impragas.
     Total arrangement time of about 2 hours, which includes their initial visits to the property to inspect the boiler.

[3] Same local plumber (as in [2]) used each time.
     Total arrangement time 10 minutes on WhatsApp.

[4] A simple job. I ordered a replacement handle on ebay and, as I couldn't get to the flat in a timely manner,
     I found a guy on Task Rabbit to fit it. I asked them to liaise with the tenant for the fitting visit.
     Total ordering and arrangement time 1 hour.

[5] Ordered a replacement oven, installation, and disposal of old via John Lewis.
     Total ordering and arrangement time 1 hour, plus 10 minutes post installation check with the tenant.
   
[6] I used Checkatrade to find 3 contractors and sent them a description and photos of the job.
     Checked their customer feedback on Checkatrade and Facebook.
     Total arrangement time about 3 hours, plus about 20 mins after the job to look at the many
     photos the contractor provided and to check with the tenant.

[7] Same local plumber used each time.
     Total arrangement time 15 minutes on WhatsApp.


So the total time I spent over the 3 years was...
  Property A: 3h 15m  (average 1h5m/year)
  Property B: 4h 45m  (average 1h35m/year)
  Total:      8h

If I used your proposed service, I would have paid you 12 months x £20 x 3 years x 2 properties = £1440

So your rate for the 'middle-man' service would be £1440 / 8 hours = £180/hour

And I would still have to spend time liaising with you to describe the job in detail, send you photos, look at the quotes, approve the selected contractor, check with you after the job was done, etc. And I would have to trust you to do a good job, in addition to trusting the contractors.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMWhat would convince you?

Based on the above I don't think you could convince me.

Your service offering doesn't make financial sense. It's not a viable business.

Quote from: HandyMan on October 16, 2024, 09:19:30 AM

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMMy ideal customer would be someone with a lot of jobs happening frequently, where they see that this will have a return on their time.

If they have lots of jobs, then once they have found a reliable builder, handyman/woman, electrician, plumber/boiler-servicer, etc, they will keep going to the same contractor and will have little or no further use for your services.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMFor instance, if I may ask, how many times a year do you require contractor call-outs?

None now, as I have sold the properties.

But looking at my property diary for the final 3 years of ownership...

Property A (1 bedroom flat):
1 x Electrician for EICR renewal [1]
1 x Boiler replacement [2]
2 x Boiler service / Gas Safety check [3]
1 x Replace broken window handle [4]

Property B (3 bedroom house):
1 x Oven replacement [5]
1 x Re-felting flat roof of garage [6]
3 x Boiler service / Gas Safety check [7]

Notes:
 -  Property A and B were 80 miles apart so I had to use different contractors for each.

[1] I engaged the same local guy who did the EICR five years previously.
    Total arrangement time 5 minutes on WhatsApp.

[2] I got a quote from: the local plumber, from British Gas, and from Impragas.
    Total arrangement time of about 2 hours, which includes their initial visits to the property to inspect the boiler.

[3] Same local plumber (as in [2]) used each time.
    Total arrangement time 10 minutes on WhatsApp.

[4] A simple job. I ordered a replacement handle on ebay and, as I couldn't get to the flat in a timely manner,
    I found a guy on Task Rabbit to fit it. I asked them to liaise with the tenant for the fitting visit.
    Total ordering and arrangement time 1 hour.

[5] Ordered a replacement oven, installation, and disposal of old via John Lewis.
    Total ordering and arrangement time 1 hour, plus 10 minutes post installation check with the tenant.
   
[6] I used Checkatrade to find 3 contractors and sent them a description and photos of the job.
    Checked their customer feedback on Checkatrade and Facebook.
    Total arrangement time about 3 hours, plus about 20 mins after the job to look at the many
    photos the contractor provided and to check with the tenant.

[7] Same local plumber used each time.
    Total arrangement time 15 minutes on WhatsApp.


So the total time I spent over the 3 years was...
  Property A: 3h 15m  (average 1h5m/year)
  Property B: 4h 45m  (average 1h35m/year)
  Total:      8h

If I used your proposed service, I would have paid you 12 months x £20 x 3 years x 2 properties = £1440

So your rate for the 'middle-man' service would be £1440 / 8 hours = £180/hour

And I would still have to spend time liaising with you to describe the job in detail, send you photos, look at the quotes, approve the selected contractor, check with you after the job was done, etc. And I would have to trust you to do a good job, in addition to trusting the contractors.

Quote from: MixrProp on October 15, 2024, 07:56:41 PMWhat would convince you?

Based on the above I don't think you could convince me.

Your service offering doesn't make financial sense. It's not a viable business.

I appreciate the in-depth answer, thanks for your time

Quote from: MixrProp on October 14, 2024, 06:54:01 PMThe value add would be from time-saved for you. For instance, if you value your time at £20/hour or greater, I would save you the time by doing the work myself, giving you a range of options and then messaging the tenant to check up on the work. Meanwhile, you can do something you prefer doing and pay someone a fixed fee of £20, no matter how tough is the job!

Except that the time taken to explain the job to a contractor would be less than the time explaining it to you - ie a registered plumber would understand an issue far greater (and faster) than a layperson.