UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hello everyone,

I am a landlord and I am new here, I would like to ask a few questions.

I intend to end my current AST and I intend to rent the flat privately.

The flat is rented to a company, an LTD, trough an estate agent, and the company sublets the flat to private individuals.

Break notice is no less than 2 months before 20th August which is the anniversary date - so 20th June the latest.

I started to search for tenants, I already have a couple of people asking to see the flat. I only posted the flat on some UK / London facebook groups at the moment.


I intend to give notice to the tenant soon and I have a few questions:

- Should I give notice now, or shall I wait until June the 20th?

- Do I need to give notice to the estate agent too, or just the tenant? I signed a document called Terms and Conditions of Business with the estate agent, do I need to terminate that too?

- For viewings, do I need to contact the estate agent or the tenant to allow my prospective tenants to see the flat?

- The estate agent tells me that I can do viewings only in last 2 months of tenancy, not before, is that legally correct? 



I listed below the paragraph from the tenancy agreement regarding landlord entering the property, can you please let me know if the agent has the right to stop me from entering the property before I reach the last 2 months of tenancy, to me it seems that incorrect:

-------------------

14. Landlord's right to enter the Property and to display signs

14.1 The Landlord reserves the right for the Landlord, or any person acting on behalf of the
Landlord, to enter the Property on giving at least 24 hours' prior notice in writing to the
Tenant:

(a) to inspect the condition and state of repair of the Property;
(b) to carry out the Landlord's obligations under this agreement;
(c) to carry out repairs or alterations to the next-door premises;
(d) to take gas, electricity or water meter readings;
(e) for any purpose mentioned in this Tenancy or connected with the Landlord's
interest in the Property or any other property; and
(f) to show prospective tenants or purchasers around the Property.


Thank you very much in advance for help
Cheers

I'd let the company, AKA your tenant know as soon as possible. What tenancy agreements do they have in place for their tenants, the people living there?

I wouldn't hold your breath about getting your property back on the anticipated date.

I wouldn't conduct viewings 2 months from a theoretical uncertain date, there's just  no need to do it that far out.

I wouldn't market the property 7 months prior to the theoretical date, as you have its just a massive waste of everyones time.

I like your optimism that you're going to receive the property back in a state that its ready for a new tenant with no decoration or remedial work required. When did you last go in there?

I wouldn't advertise on Facebook, I'd use openrent where you can set criteria and automatically reply to enquiries with a number of questions that they need to complete even before you need to waste any time on people. Once they've answered the questions you can waste even less time by weeding out people suitable for viewings.

Everything that Riptide said!

I don't think you have a clue what you're doing. And, while asking questions is a good start, you're asking them about the consequences of a decision you clearly don't know enough to make, in a situation which is unlikely to be how you think it is.

Quote from: Riptide on January 18, 2024, 10:39:57 PMI'd let the company, AKA your tenant know as soon as possible. What tenancy agreements do they have in place for their tenants, the people living there?

I wouldn't hold your breath about getting your property back on the anticipated date.

I wouldn't conduct viewings 2 months from a theoretical uncertain date, there's just  no need to do it that far out.

I wouldn't market the property 7 months prior to the theoretical date, as you have its just a massive waste of everyones time.

I like your optimism that you're going to receive the property back in a state that its ready for a new tenant with no decoration or remedial work required. When did you last go in there?

I wouldn't advertise on Facebook, I'd use openrent where you can set criteria and automatically reply to enquiries with a number of questions that they need to complete even before you need to waste any time on people. Once they've answered the questions you can waste even less time by weeding out people suitable for viewings.

- What should I let the company / tenant know about? I don't know what tenancy agreements they have in place with their tenants, the property was managed by the estate agent. 

- Why do you think that? They are a respectable company quite big and I don't think they will refuse exit on the anniversary date.

- I know what you mean but I also know it's hard to find tenants right? I was thinking to start well in advance and increase my chances, if I don't get a new tenant in the last 2 months I will pay mortgage with rent co cover.

- ok, I got it

- I did request images of properties from the estate agent, recently and the property looks very good, clean and in good conditions, I intent to go there myself at some point, I didn't want to disturb the tenants

- ok, I understand but I already had 3 enquiries and 1 viewing from facebook   

- I will explore and advertise on openrent at the right time


These questions haven't been answered to, can you please let me know:

- Do I need to give notice to the estate agent too, or just the tenant? I signed a document called Terms and Conditions of Business with the estate agent, do I need to terminate that too?

- For viewings, do I need to contact the estate agent or the tenant (bearing in mind it is a company) to allow my prospective tenants to see the flat? is there a rule in place?

- Landlord's right to enter the Property

Quote from: jpkeates on January 19, 2024, 09:31:53 AMEverything that Riptide said!

I don't think you have a clue what you're doing. And, while asking questions is a good start, you're asking them about the consequences of a decision you clearly don't know enough to make, in a situation which is unlikely to be how you think it is.

Well, that's why I am here no? To get help!!!
You can explain why I am in a situation which is unlikely to be how I think it is.

- Why do you think that? They are a respectable company quite big and I don't think they will refuse exit on the anniversary date.


- Do I need to give notice to the estate agent too, or just the tenant? I signed a document called Terms and Conditions of Business with the estate agent, do I need to terminate that too?

- For viewings, do I need to contact the estate agent or the tenant (bearing in mind it is a company) to allow my prospective tenants to see the flat? is there a rule in place?

- Landlord's right to enter the Property
[/quote]

- I think that as it sounds like the company aren't the people living in the property or their staff, there are strangers, to you, living there.

Tenancy agreements can't be terminated at the flick of a switch and if the tenant doesn't move out on a prescribed date there is little you can do about it.

Do you know what the process would be if this happens?

- If you're paying an estate agent as a middleman tell them. If you have a relationship with your tenant, you could also tell them.

- If you're terminating the estate agents services I guess its time to read the section of the terms of business you signed that relates to termination of the services.

- It's not hard to find tenants. There are hoardes of them hopelessly refreshing openrent and rightmove on an almost hourly basis. There are lots of tenants who request viewings who don't fit my criteria and I don't waste anyones time, including my own. I've recently rented out a property again after only a 10 month tenancy. Roughly 40 requests to view over the two advertising periods.

First time, showed two shortlisted tenants. Both wanted it.
2nd time, 1 viewing, 1 tenant.

You've got 1 product that you need to 'sell' to one customer. Gathering interest 8 months out is plain daft unless you've got some sort of niche property.

Quote from: Riptide on January 19, 2024, 06:17:29 PM- Why do you think that? They are a respectable company quite big and I don't think they will refuse exit on the anniversary date.

- Do I need to give notice to the estate agent too, or just the tenant? I signed a document called Terms and Conditions of Business with the estate agent, do I need to terminate that too?

- For viewings, do I need to contact the estate agent or the tenant (bearing in mind it is a company) to allow my prospective tenants to see the flat? is there a rule in place?

- Landlord's right to enter the Property


- I think that as it sounds like the company aren't the people living in the property or their staff, there are strangers, to you, living there.

Tenancy agreements can't be terminated at the flick of a switch and if the tenant doesn't move out on a prescribed date there is little you can do about it.

Do you know what the process would be if this happens?

- If you're paying an estate agent as a middleman tell them. If you have a relationship with your tenant, you could also tell them.

- If you're terminating the estate agents services I guess its time to read the section of the terms of business you signed that relates to termination of the services.

- It's not hard to find tenants. There are hoardes of them hopelessly refreshing openrent and rightmove on an almost hourly basis. There are lots of tenants who request viewings who don't fit my criteria and I don't waste anyones time, including my own. I've recently rented out a property again after only a 10 month tenancy. Roughly 40 requests to view over the two advertising periods.

First time, showed two shortlisted tenants. Both wanted it.
2nd time, 1 viewing, 1 tenant.

You've got 1 product that you need to 'sell' to one customer. Gathering interest 8 months out is plain daft unless you've got some sort of niche property.

I have a clue about what the process would be, but I think it's unlikely that my tenant will refuse to leave on the due date, but, if they do refuse, I will have to serve a section 21 notice (assured shorthold tenancy) and / or apply for an injunction to allow access, I will have to get in touch with a tenancy litigator / barrister) .

The estate agent holds a grudge, they don't like the fact that I will give notice on the term.

The agent said I can only view the property in the last two months. The agent is upset because when I wanted to sell the flat with them, after 4 months, when we were just about to exchange the buyer ask me to drop the price £20K and I refused, the estate agent pushed me to sell anyway, but I didn't, hence the grudge.

Can you please explain a bit more about "Tenancy agreements can't be terminated at the flick of a switch"
As far as I know I have to give notice at least 2 months in advance to the tenant, in writing, a letter sign for it with special delivery and delivery confirmation that they received the letter.

I read the estate agent terms, termination sections, but I am a bit confused as there are 2 sections on termination, one on management and one general. In the general termination section it's not stipulated the termination term. 
 

Section 1
==========================
2.6 Termination of Management

2.6.1 Either party has the right to terminate this Agreement in writing:

• Upon the Tenant's vacation.

• Or if the other party falls in breach of the clauses set out
within this Agreement during a Tenancy where monetary
compensation is wholly inadequate.

2.6.2 You may withdraw your instructions for us to manage the
Premises upon giving us 3 months written notice. In the event
that the Premises are handed over to you with the Tenants still
in residence our charges will continue to be payable as if we
were then instructed on a Letting only service basis, this will be
charged at the published rate.

Section 2
========================
3.21 Withdrawal and Termination

3.21.1 Both the Landlord and Agent may cancel our agency services by
instruction in writing but the termination of this Agreement, for
any reason, does not affect our rights to payment by you of
commission and expenses for the whole period that any person,
party or connected person or party, that we introduced takes
occupancy and remains in the Property whether or not The
Chant Group Ltd act on your behalf. We reserve the right to
invoice you for any advertising, marketing costs or expenses we
have committed to or incurred prior to the termination.
====================

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 08:21:31 AMI have a clue about what the process would be, but I think it's unlikely that my tenant will refuse to leave on the due date, but, if they do refuse, I will have to serve a section 21 notice

Be aware that serving a section 21 notice to vacate by a particular date does not guarantee that a tenant will leave. As a result of the shortage of reasonably priced rented accommodation and the huge competition among potential tenants, many are understandably choosing to stay where they are and wait out the protracted process for the landlord to get a court order to evict, and then bailiffs to enforce.

Also, you said:

QuoteThe flat is rented to a company, an LTD, trough an estate agent, and the company sublets the flat to private individuals

so it appears that you don't have a direct relationship with the tenant, which further complicates the process.

Quote from: John22 on January 19, 2024, 04:09:38 PMYou can explain why I am in a situation which is unlikely to be how I think it is

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 08:21:31 AMI have a clue about what the process would be, but I think it's unlikely that my tenant will refuse to leave on the due date, but, if they do refuse, I will have to serve a section 21 notice (assured shorthold tenancy) and / or apply for an injunction to allow access, I will have to get in touch with a tenancy litigator / barrister).

You don't have and assured shorthold tenancy (because your tenant isn't a human being) so a section 21 isn't possible and you have no basis for an injunction. You're just typing words that sound meaningful, but aren't.

The simplest thing for the company to do is to agree to end the tenancy as you request, leaving you with the occupants as your own tenants, who will be close to unevictable.

You don't know what you're doing and the situation you are in is nothing like you think it is. You agreed to a commercial let without understanding what you were doing and you're arguing with the people who're trying to explain it to you. 

Asking questions is better than not, but "what colour is best for a parachute?" is the wrong question when falling from a plane.

Quote from: HandyMan on January 20, 2024, 11:01:33 AM

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 08:21:31 AMI have a clue about what the process would be, but I think it's unlikely that my tenant will refuse to leave on the due date, but, if they do refuse, I will have to serve a section 21 notice

Be aware that serving a section 21 notice to vacate by a particular date does not guarantee that a tenant will leave. As a result of the shortage of reasonably priced rented accommodation and the huge competition among potential tenants, many are understandably choosing to stay where they are and wait out the protracted process for the landlord to get a court order to evict, and then bailiffs to enforce.

Also, you said:

QuoteThe flat is rented to a company, an LTD, trough an estate agent, and the company sublets the flat to private individuals

so it appears that you don't have a direct relationship with the tenant, which further complicates the process.

- I know it does not guarantee that a tenant will leave, but what else can I do? maybe you have a different solution.
I also said i will apply for an injunction.

- I have been in contact with the tenant, many times, I know them.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 20, 2024, 11:19:04 AM

Quote from: John22 on January 19, 2024, 04:09:38 PMYou can explain why I am in a situation which is unlikely to be how I think it is

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 08:21:31 AMI have a clue about what the process would be, but I think it's unlikely that my tenant will refuse to leave on the due date, but, if they do refuse, I will have to serve a section 21 notice (assured shorthold tenancy) and / or apply for an injunction to allow access, I will have to get in touch with a tenancy litigator / barrister).

You don't have and assured shorthold tenancy (because your tenant isn't a human being) so a section 21 isn't possible and you have no basis for an injunction. You're just typing words that sound meaningful, but aren't.

The simplest thing for the company to do is to agree to end the tenancy as you request, leaving you with the occupants as your own tenants, who will be close to unevictable.

You don't know what you're doing and the situation you are in is nothing like you think it is. You agreed to a commercial let without understanding what you were doing and you're arguing with the people who're trying to explain it to you. 

Asking questions is better than not, but "what colour is best for a parachute?" is the wrong question when falling from a plane.

Ok, I understand.

I was told by a few real estate solicitors and a barrister that this is not a commercial let and it is an STA, they all said it is an STA.

I am not arguing, I am trying to get some help asking questions.

I feel like you keep insulting me instead of trying to help me!

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 01:49:56 PMI feel like you keep insulting me instead of trying to help me!

Apologies. You caught me in a weird mood, so I was probably more rude than I should have been.

There's not an STA in England, are you in Scotland? In England (and Wales) it would be an AST. But in Scotland there is no section 21.

If you're letting to a company it will be a commercial let (that's just how it works), but it's unlikely that a series of legal experts would give you information that's simply not possible based on what you've posted.

I don't understand why you keep referring to an injunction. What are you hoping to compel the company to do (or to not do) and on what basis do you think a court would agree to do that? In decades of being a landlord, I've never heard of a landlord using an injunction to end a tenancy.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 20, 2024, 03:09:09 PM

Quote from: John22 on January 20, 2024, 01:49:56 PMI feel like you keep insulting me instead of trying to help me!

Apologies. You caught me in a weird mood, so I was probably more rude than I should have been.

There's not an STA in England, are you in Scotland? In England (and Wales) it would be an AST. But in Scotland there is no section 21.

If you're letting to a company it will be a commercial let (that's just how it works), but it's unlikely that a series of legal experts would give you information that's simply not possible based on what you've posted.

I don't understand why you keep referring to an injunction. What are you hoping to compel the company to do (or to not do) and on what basis do you think a court would agree to do that? In decades of being a landlord, I've never heard of a landlord using an injunction to end a tenancy.

OK, I understand, we all have bad moods sometimes. 

The property is in London

I just checked again all communication / emails and my estate agent actually was telling me that our agreement is a "common law tenancy agreement" (not AST) sorry. 
Is this an advantage or a disadvantage in case I will be having issues with the LTD?

One solicitor told me that this is arguably a "commercial lease".

Sorry I think I got confused and I thought the injunction is a faster way to regain access, but it looks like it is used only to enter the property quicker in extreme circumstances.

A common law tenancy is pretty much the same as a commercial tenancy, in effect and in terms of your options. It means, for example, that section 21 isn't applicable, nor are most of the restrictions and regulations that relate to a residential tenancy.

It also means that there is likely to be a massive imbalance between the rights and obligations between you and the company you let to and that company and their own tenants - who are likely to be there under residential tenancies, where the occupants have many more rights. The company is very unlikely to be able to remove its own tenants in anything like the time frame that you can theoretically end your agreement with them. Moreover that is both a lot of work and expense for the company in parallel with a declining stream of income as they get rid of their tenants over time.

There is a significant risk of them simply agreeing to end their own lease with you without removing the occupants. In which case, they will automatically become your tenants (you have no choice in this) and they will then be your problem to evict. And given that being able to serve notice to remove them requires a number of things to have been done at the start and during the tenancy by the landlord, who was not you up until then, you will be at a considerable disadvantage. To the point where it might not be possible to evict all or some of the occupants.

You need to be careful with how you work with the company to end this arrangement to your mutual satisfaction.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 21, 2024, 11:38:39 AMA common law tenancy is pretty much the same as a commercial tenancy, in effect and in terms of your options. It means, for example, that section 21 isn't applicable, nor are most of the restrictions and regulations that relate to a residential tenancy.

It also means that there is likely to be a massive imbalance between the rights and obligations between you and the company you let to and that company and their own tenants - who are likely to be there under residential tenancies, where the occupants have many more rights. The company is very unlikely to be able to remove its own tenants in anything like the time frame that you can theoretically end your agreement with them. Moreover that is both a lot of work and expense for the company in parallel with a declining stream of income as they get rid of their tenants over time.

There is a significant risk of them simply agreeing to end their own lease with you without removing the occupants. In which case, they will automatically become your tenants (you have no choice in this) and they will then be your problem to evict. And given that being able to serve notice to remove them requires a number of things to have been done at the start and during the tenancy by the landlord, who was not you up until then, you will be at a considerable disadvantage. To the point where it might not be possible to evict all or some of the occupants.

You need to be careful with how you work with the company to end this arrangement to your mutual satisfaction.

I understand, it makes sense, thank you so much for your answer! 

I hope I won't have any problems in August, and I rely on the fact that, this is a big company with about 1500 employees, currently operating in 18 cities over the world with over 5,500 furnished apartments rented. They rent my furnished flat for relatively short stay, something like booking a hotel for a long term stay, rather than staying in a hotel.


There is another matte that I am worried about: when they rented my flat back in august 2021 they removed my furniture and they furnished the flat with new furniture. The deal was, when the tenancy finishes the furniture will remain in the flat for me.

I am wondering if the below clause in the agreement was enough to secure my furniture at the end of the tenancy: 
---------------------
17. Special Clause
The landlord will remove furniture as per the tenant's request. The tenant will replace
with new furniture which will then remain in property at the end of the tenancy.

Looks as if it should be OK. Commercial contracts end when the process to terminate them is executed.

If the occupants are short term holiday style lets, they don't have the same rights as residential tenants.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 21, 2024, 01:34:07 PMLooks as if it should be OK. Commercial contracts end when the process to terminate them is executed.

If the occupants are short term holiday style lets, they don't have the same rights as residential tenants.

Phew! Thank you! I feel much better.

What about the furniture clause? Is it ok?

Can I please post a copy of the tenancy agreement and terms of business with the agent for an opinion please?

I will post only the text, no private data

I don't think that breaks any rules. Someone will delete it or point out if it does.