UK Landlord Forum / Life

Sorry if I am going over old ground here.
I have a shop with two flats over it, one flat is on the first floor and the other in the attic.
Since the building went up in 1901 there is obviously no wall cavity, though both flats are double glazed.
I am very concerned as to how they will pass the required EPC certificate, particularly the top flat where the roof effectively constitutes part of the walls.
Even more problematic is that neither flat has gas heating, it was not in when I bought the building and I do not want to fit it either, not just for the cost but the subsequent requirement for yearly "gas safety certificates".

1 - I was told that the lack of gas heating would mean the flats would immediately fail the EPC, is that really true ? And how can it be if they're going to ban gas boilers anyway ?!?

2 - Is there any dispensation for old properties as regards EPCs ?

3 - If I do have to spend thousands what is the legal situation about putting up the rent to cover it ?

I have to say EPCs are the latest in a long line of PITA requirements, I really do not know why anyone would choose to be a landlord !

1 - No, it isn't.
2 - No. You can apply for an exemption, but they're expensive, rare and I can't see how you'd qualify.
3 - You have to have an EPC to let a property and it has to be better than a score of F. But that's true now, so I don't see how you could put up the rent to remedy that. And there's a natural cap on rent for energy inefficient properties.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 12, 2024, 02:06:38 PM1 - No, it isn't.
2 - No. You can apply for an exemption, but they're expensive, rare and I can't see how you'd qualify.
3 - You have to have an EPC to let a property and it has to be better than a score of F. But that's true now, so I don't see how you could put up the rent to remedy that. And there's a natural cap on rent for energy inefficient properties.

Thanks for your useful post.
The tenants have been in for 9 and 12 years. Just out of interest, if it was impractical to get the top flat up to F rating would I have to evict the tenant to stay within the law ?!?
I don't think this has been thought through has it, particularly when there's a massive shortage of rented properties. I have even had people phoning me up on spec asking me if I have a flat for rent, I have never had that before in the 27 years I have owned the building !

If the tenants moved in 9 and 12 years ago, EPCs were mandatory before they moved in. There's no obligation to get another one done unless you want to relet the property or sell it. But, if either of the existing EPCs are below E, the lets are already not legal.

If your properties aren't at the minimum level allowed, yes, you would have to end the tenancies to be compliant. As long as no one checks, your risk of being found out is limited.

If the government ever manages to implement a register of landlords and let properties, enforcement of these regulations would be a big issue.

Am I right the "acceptable" EPC standard is to be raised ? I thought it was supposed to have been but it has been postponed ?
And what will happen with older buildings where that is not possible ?

I just read this :

There are a few exemptions available to landlords that allow you to continue to rent a property with a rating of F or G, all of which must be specifically applied for.

Third party consent: where a landlord cannot obtain the required consent from a third party, such as a tenant, superior landlord, or lender, to carry out work. If you cannot gain consent from your tenant, then you must keep evidence of communication.

I think it is likely my tenants would not be keen on the idea of major work being done on the properties whilst they are in there.
In the case of the 1st floor property I do not actually think it would make a huge difference in terms of lower bills. The tenant does not seem to that keen on co operating to even get a survey done !
In the case of the attic property the work may well require internal wall insulation, would be very extensive and make the rooms smaller as well. I'd have thought the only practical time to do that is if the property was empty.

Quote from: Reluctant Landlord... on January 22, 2024, 10:40:52 AMAm I right the "acceptable" EPC standard is to be raised ? I thought it was supposed to have been but it has been postponed ?
And what will happen with older buildings where that is not possible ?

The proposal from the government to raise the EPC minimum standard to a "C" is not longer a short term target. It may reappear, but the most likely source would seem most likely to be a new government and they've made no indication of their plans.

There was a private members bill from a Liberal Democrat to raise all properties (all of them!) to a C. But that has no realistic chance of going ahead (and has probably been wiped out by the new session of parliament).

For old buildings where the standard could not be met the proposal was similar to the rules about "F" rated properties. You register an exemption.

Am I right that the exemption for older buildings is not as it sounds ? ! ?

they are exempt "insofar as compliance with certain minimum energy performance requirements would unacceptably alter their character or appearance"

So, if I understand this correctly, a building from 1890 (or whatever) with no wall cavity is not exempt just because it might cost £10,000 (and make the rooms significantly smaller) to install internal wall insulation ?

With reference to my earlier quote, what does happen if the tenants do not want the work doing ?

In the following, what does "applies only to domestic properties" mean ?

The prohibition on letting property below an EPC rating of E does not apply if the cost of making even the cheapest recommended improvement would exceed £3,500 (inc. VAT).

Applies only to domestic property.

The EPC restrictions being discussed in these articles only apply to residential property from private landlords (there are other restrictions on other types of property). So the exceptions only apply to the same cases.

The proposed change for C made that financial limit £10,000 and seemed to indicate that you had to have spent that amount, rather than had quotes to that value.

There's another exemption about whether the change would pay back in reduced energy costs over a period, but I could never figure out how that could ever happen, because energy costs are quite variable.

Quote from: jpkeates on January 22, 2024, 01:10:34 PMThe proposed change for C made that financial limit £10,000 and seemed to indicate that you had to have spent that amount, rather than had quotes to that value.

OMG !
And would that £10,000 apply the same for a two room flat or a whole house ?
If so that is a little but unfair to put it mildly.
Anyone would think thy are trying to reduce the number of flats for rent !

Oh dear.
I have spoken to another EPC inspector who said the same thing, if the property has no gas heating it will score lower on an EPC... Despite the fact they are trying to get us to stop using gas heating and even talking about banning it !

Quote from: Reluctant Landlord... on January 22, 2024, 03:23:48 PMif the property has no gas heating it will score lower on an EPC... Despite the fact they are trying to get us to stop using gas heating and even talking about banning it !

It's not the lack of gas per se that's the problem: it's that you're presumably using direct electric heating. Have a look at an air source heat pump. Given you've not already got a wet heating system, air-to-air is probably the way to go. It's not eligible for the BUS grant but it's a lot cheaper in the first place and is arguably more tenant-friendly in that it's more suited to on-off usage rather than a constant low-and-slow heat input.

Quote from: Simon Pambin on January 22, 2024, 05:58:47 PM

Quote from: Reluctant Landlord... on January 22, 2024, 03:23:48 PMif the property has no gas heating it will score lower on an EPC... Despite the fact they are trying to get us to stop using gas heating and even talking about banning it !

It's not the lack of gas per se that's the problem: it's that you're presumably using direct electric heating. Have a look at an air source heat pump. Given you've not already got a wet heating system, air-to-air is probably the way to go. It's not eligible for the BUS grant but it's a lot cheaper in the first place and is arguably more tenant-friendly in that it's more suited to on-off usage rather than a constant low-and-slow heat input.

That sounds expensive and potentially troublesome (maintenance and breakdowns etc), plus I thought there was a limit of £3k you were expected to spend ? Also I thought they only gave out warmth at best and so needed huge radiators and there is not the room for them. Lastly I am not at all sure the tenants would want all the inconvenience of them being installed, particularly in the top flat, he has got so much junk there would be no room to move it to in order to do the work !

Not sure what you mean by "direct electric heating", other than if you are meaning a non heat pump system.

Quote from: Reluctant Landlord... on January 22, 2024, 06:26:43 PMThat sounds expensive and potentially troublesome (maintenance and breakdowns etc), plus I thought there was a limit of £3k you were expected to spend ? Also I thought they only gave out warmth at best and so needed huge radiators and there is not the room for them. Lastly I am not at all sure the tenants would want all the inconvenience of them being installed, particularly in the top flat, he has got so much junk there would be no room to move it to in order to do the work !

Not sure what you mean by "direct electric heating", other than if you are meaning a non heat pump system.

Yes, direct electric is anything like storage heaters, fan heaters, electric radiators, electric fires etc. You put in 1KW of electricity and you get 1KW of heat. A heat pump uses electricity to pull heat out of the year and increase its temperature to a usable level, so 1KW of electricity will give you somewhere between 2-6KW of heat. As I said previously, given that you've not got plumbed-in radiators already, an air-to-air system would be the way to go. It's more efficient than air-to-water, it gives you air conditioning in summer and it'll leave you plenty of change from that three grand figure you seem to have conjured up from somewhere.

I have been doing a bit of research on this......

I do not want internal insulation, a big job with loads of redecorating to do and it makes the rooms smaller too.

I also do not want gas central heating, it'd be expensive to fit, modern boilers are unreliable, a gas safety certificate would be required every year (hassle as well as cost) and I do not want to be reliant on gas engineers who are expensive and seem to charge landlords even more. And the government, apparently, want to phase out gas anyway !

Fitting solar panels may be an answer ? It ups the EPC considerably but does not require large amounts of internal work and/or getting involved with gas heating. It's also much more reliable than a condensing boiler. The idea would be may even be cost neutral because one could then increase the rent to cover the cost as the tenant would be saving money on their elec incl selling back excess power to the supplier. At home we sell our excess elec from our solar panels back to our supplier (Octopus) for 15p per kWH.
And one could feel one was off setting ones flights to the Canaries when its soddin' cold over here !
Downsides is it ideally needs an unobstructed south facing roof.

Thoughts ?