UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi Guys. Longtime follower and first poster.

I am looking for some advice with this situation.

Tenant leaves a noon on last day of possession and returns keys through my letterbox.

Late afternoon, I inspect and notice, that whilst generally clean, there were issues - mainly Dirty Oven, Badly made-good painting from shelf removal, wall marks, cobwebs and dust, spillages etc.

Property was freshly refitted throughout at start of tenancy and in mint condition.

I spent a few hours sorting all of the above in time for new tenants to take possession at 7am the following morning.

In fairness, if I hadn't someone else's manky oven to clean, I would have let it slide - but that was the tipping point, after a working away with a shitty cold I decided to make reasonable deductions based on time spent and a (cheap) quote for a pro to sort the painted wall.
I won't detail deductions here, they are all reasonable and evidenced and considerably less than an agency would charge.

My ex-tenant is disputing the proposed deduction as - I paraphrase "I should have contacted them first and given them the rest of the day/evening to fix things themselves"


On one hand, I see where they are coming from, on the other hand, I started cleaning cobwebs and dirt off walls, then discovered the oven needed doing so just cracked on.

Surely a tenant is responsible for leaving the property in an appropriate condition. What if I had not inspected until some time after?

I'm annoyed that I'm falling out with an otherwise model tenant, but after wasting half a day under pressure to get the property ready for new occupants and struggling with a shitty cold, I thought that sensible deduction was justified.


So, where do we both stand - rules-wise. Is this a rational objection, or should I stand by the deduction?

Cheers,

MacBain

Hi MacBain, if it were me, I would just let it go.  If you were in conflict with a tenant in the middle of a contract then OK you have a problem.  But this one has been as you say an "otherwise model tenant", has now left, and you have had lots of rent from them in the process, so why stress yourself.

Yes it is shitty to have to clean an oven you didnt expect to have to clean.  But take a deep breath.  Hold it..... hold it..... hold it.. Now let it go.

Everything is rosy again.

I get what you are saying, it's not worth losing sleep over...


.... however, it's a business.


It cost me a chunk of time over a weekend (time when I should have been sneezing under a duvet), and a (small) decorating bill that I'll be out of pocket.

The tenant failed in their responsibility to return the property in the state they promised to and the state they took it on, kinda galling.

My response will likely be along the lines of
"I understand you are miffed because you think you thoroughly cleaned the property
You missed some stuff, it cost me X time and Y money.
I didn't have the luxury of having enough time to give you the opportunity to put stuff right after you vacated, and me still have the time to re-inspect and then take any still-remaining remedial action before the start of a new tenancy.

Any thoughts on if I'm taking the legally/procedurally correct response, or if not, why not?

What I have learned from this - all future tenants will get a checkout checklist - making it clear what I expect to be done and what happens if they don't. Reminders like, lightbulbs, ovens, kitchen cupboards etc.

You seem focused on your cold. No-one else will be. It's irrelevant, despite you mentioning it three times in two posts.

If the Tenant was to take the issue / dispute through the ADR process of any deposit protection scheme, do you have the evidence to back you up? I am doubting that. You didn't do a Check-out with the Tenant present, so how could any problems ever be rectified? They couldn't. You don't seem to have prepared them for your expectations, so they possibly just tried their best with no direction (your idea about information being provided before Check-out is a sound one, I do it myself).

Who is final arbiter of this decision?

While you say the line items and amounts don't matter... what are you trying to deduct here?

It's not clear how long the tenancy was for.

Unfortunately, Hippogriff has a point, your cold does not mean that a tenant should have done more for you, and if you were set on having all of the tenant's responsibilities honoured, you would have made sure they were there for the check out to settle any disputes.

You have to look at it from both sides, if the tenant thought they had done all that they could to help and leave by midday but completely forgot about the oven that they would have happily come back to clean, they would be miffed that they are being charged by a landlord when they have never done anything else wrong.

It probably isn't worth chasing and causing bad blood when, as you said, the tenant caused no other problems. Chances are you have made a fair amount from them already whereas they are likely to be trying to find new agency fees for another property. Moreover, tenants should always be given 'wear-and-tear' allowances, which it sounds like these issues are.

I hope you find a resolution.

Jeff

Just to add my point.

You are being a dick.

You did really well not to have a void, and your opening yourself up to arguments which you cant charge for.

You've been very lucky, you still want to deduct money for little things, Oven cleaner is 99p a spray can and ten minutes with a cloth.

You had a cold.. get over you missery.

Thanks Boboff.

Very hostile here isn't it. Must be a thriving community making people want to openly discuss interesting issues without threat of abuse.

Outright personal attacks over the internet mark you out as someone I probably don't want to associate with.


Sarcasm and ribbing is another thing entirely (Thanks Hippogriff).
- The amounts are small, few hours time, some chemicals, £50 repainting,
Worth mentioning the flat was brand new at the start of the tenancy, so fair wear and tear excepted, should have been mint.
I figure if I can clean a mark off a wall, its a cleaning issue, not accidental damage.


Martha - thanks for your input.


Anyway - to address a few points.

1) I asked for people's thoughts on the claim "you should have called me back to fix it" argument.    Sounds reasonable - but does a tenant really have the right to do that after they have checked out and left.? that's the main trust of y post.

2) Having had past income from a tenancy and no void meaning I shouldn't care about time and money at the end of it - I'd say that's a logical fallacy. You don't see successful businesses cutting costs "because they have a good product and are making enough profit"

3) Yeah - I'm sympathetic to the tenant

4) Nobody gives a shit about my cold, and it's irrelevant to what the rules actually are, you are all right.
It was the tipping point between "ah its ok, I'll spend a few hours tidying up" and "Fuck, this isn't the perfect turnaround I was promised".

5) Photo and video inventories. Flat and appliances new at checkin. Pretty watertight I should hope.

Thanks Guys,

I await your further abuse with interest.

MacBain

You can't charge for your time, sorry. If you want to charge for things like cleaning then, yes, you can charge for materials, or you need an invoice from a professional company who carried out the service for you, that's all fine... you getting 'stuck in' is just that... you can't deduct for that.

It's not abuse to be told you're being unreasonable. You just don't want to hear that... no-one does, we get it. Roll with the punches...

I'm still not clear how this deposit is held.

If it's with a Deposit Protection Scheme then all the Tenant has to do is raise a dispute and you (I fear) will be on a hiding-to-nothing via ADR. I'd try to avoid that if possible.

If it's in your bank account (via an Insurance Deposit Protection Scheme) then you have more control, but are still going to be on the back foot. If you have not protected it, then - maybe - you have done something naughty already?

"You should have let me back in to fix things" is a phrase I hear all too frequently after a tenant has been checked out. The only people we let back in to clean are professional cleaners if they are returning to remedy their own omissions. What would happen if we let the tenant back in and they spilt bleach over the carpet after a formal check-out? Even without man-flu I think your stance on this is reasonable.

Hopefully you have protected the deposit and have evidence of condition at the start and end of the tenancy as without it your claim will fail.

I manage quite a few properties and amicably settle many small claims but if there is a dispute, I encourage landlords to always look at the bigger picture so if the claim is for a small amount, say £200 or less, and the tenant has been decent in most other ways then I would say let it go. With any luck you're making enough out of it anyway?

I have to say that on your point 2)  MacBain, about it being a business and recovering every cost however small etc.....

I personally disagree.  The reason is that you have a choice whether to exchange the recovery of the small amounts from your bean counting exercise, for stress and hassle and time.  Those too have a cost for me, and will figure in my business model if I judge the costs involved are a) one-off and b) insignificant.

I would have cleaned the oven, blown my nose and got on with my life. 

Cost recovery has to be proportionate.

Thanks for the continued input guys*

Deposit is in a DPS.

I'm aware the ADR will be far more hassle that it's worth.
Despite things being relatively cut and dried - from new condition - video, photo, written inventory - before and after cleanup - I know it's not worth the effort for less than a few hundred quid.


As an aside - there is a lot of contradictory info out there about landlords charging for their time, many people suggest you can - either at the "going rate" for the task at hand, or a "professional" rate.

Akin to an agency billing you for an odd-job-man to tidy things up and change lightbulbs, can you pay your wife for their time to go get some bulbs, batteries and replacement furniture? - providing it's declared as income, of course?


I'm treating it as a learning exercise - to whit
1) Always checkout with the tenant - add this requirement to the contract (who knows if enforceable?)

2) I did a pre-checkout inspection for maintenance issues a few weeks before checkout, but was unable to identify the problems - stuff in way etc. - from now on there will be a clear checkout checklist with a suggested sensible scale of charges for things left un-done (again - who knows if enforceable if not in contract - but may encourage outgoing tenant to make sure they sort everything.)

3) Clearly discuss expectations of repairs the tenants do - no making a mess of patching up shelving holes.


Anything you'd care to add to my list



(Boboff  "4) don't be a dick" ?)



*used in a gender-neutral context...

So, if the deposit is with a protection scheme you really need to come to an agreement with the Tenant. You can't deduct anything from the deposit without their agreement, right? If they don't agree then it's dispute time and ADR which is, as you say, more hassle than it's worth.

You can't deduct for your time. If you did, what rate is the 'going rate' you refer to? Is it what someone might charge for it, is it what your own personal hourly rate might be (calculated from, say, salary?), is it a standard £15 per hour for any effort? Whatever you decide, I can assure you that someone will disagree with you. So, no, you really can't deduct for your own time. If you don't want to clean an oven, and the Tenant hasn't, employ someone to do it... you can deduct for that.

Mate, I wasn't at all being hostile.... well, I get where you may feel as was. But I wasn't angry, or cross, or anything other than blunt.

Sometimes it's nicer to be blunt, that write long posts that you get bored and fall asleep through.

Plus I would say ito your face

Plus you asked for advice.

Plus everyone else really said you were a dick, but in a nicer way.

Anyway, stuff to do.... with all my friend.....(singular!)

5)Sorry if I caused offence, just being straight with you, *in a non sexual orientation manner.

I'd say "being a dick" rather than "is a dick" and hope that the subtle temporally-hinted-at difference is appreciated.

Life is like a dick, just hanging, chillin.

It's women that make it hard.

Difficult?

Boboff - no worries pal.
I'll accept it in the spirit you meant it - although I'd still say its very easy to drive potential community members away with things like that. No body language or cheeky grin to show you are just playing devils advocate.

So, the outcome - Trivial deposit deduction agreed. ADR avoided.

Would I bother next time?

Probably not...

.... unless I had a shitty cold and was all grumpy.

Is grumpiness linked to having a cold? Not for me it ain't.

I have had a mucous cold before, never a shitty one, no wonder you were grumpy, cough in your pants, Shart alert!

A bit late to the party here, but we have found that the following procedure has helped tremendously over the years.......

1.  Tenant gives notice to quit.

2.  Landlord issues letter of acknowledgement, with comprehensive checklist attached outlining what is expected from tenant before he/she leaves.  Checklist also gives likely costs chargeable if tenant fails to comply.

3.  Landlord & tenant meet on day of vacating, after property has been cleared and cleaned by tenant.  Check out form completed at that time and signed by tenant.  Anything additional required is agreed at that point.

4.  As tenant is invariably keen to move on, they rarely want to be involved in any additional work at that point.

5.  Remedial action undertaken by landlord and deduction, allowing for wear & tear, made from deposit.

The only problems we have encountered has been where tenants have failed to turn up for the checkout appointment and maybe pushed the keys back through the letter box.  The meeting on the moving out day is key.