UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hi,
I recently vacated a property in Gloucester and moved to London. Before we moved out I volunteered to get the carpets cleaned but my landlord refused it and said she will take care of it once I move out. During their inspection of the property (after a week post my move out) they found that the living room carpet is way too much dirty. I don't deny that it wasn't and that is the same reason why I wanted to get it professionally cleaned before I move out. The landlord asked a 3rd party agent to make a report on the amount of cleaning required and the agent has said that the carpets needs to be replaced as they are beyond cleaning stage. Landlord wants to charge me for the complete replacement of the carpet. What bothers me is I didn't get a chance to clean the carpet by pros, I have to rely on the Landlord's judgement completely and cannot talk to other cleaning agents and get their views on the state of the carpet. Moreover, the carpet was not new when we moved in so why should I end up paying for a brand new one? Landlord claims the dirty carpet as property damage. Would like to know what are my options here? Do I need to bear the carpet replacement cost?

No.

Simply raise a dispute with the Scheme the deposit was protected with... you will both need to abide by the decision of an objective third party.

Do that today. The onus of evidence will be entirely upon the Landlord. It may take some time, but I can envisage the Adjudicator will not find you have to bear the cost of a replacement carpet when the carpet was not new when you moved in. Things like carpets have a useful lifetime, it may be 5 years or 10 years, and the Adjudicator will use a mathematical formula (if they agree it needs replacing and you are liable in any way) to allocate a percentage to you.

Inform the Agent and Landlord that you will be doing that today... be polite, respectful and objective, just say you want to see what the Alternative Dispute Resolution process of the Deposit Protection Scheme concludes, and you will abide by that... see if they change their approach in about 10 seconds.

Thanks for the information. It's really helpful. I thought as much but my landlord said that I will have to bear the whole cost and not a percentage of it. The landlord is however, yet to give me the final deduction amount. Am waiting for the figure. If its something unreasonable then surely I will approach the ADR. Thanks again

It doesn't matter what your Landlord says. Sadly, for them, they would not be the arbiter. But, yes, wait until the amount is proposed before acting, but don't wait too long... what on earth are they doing?

When I attend Check-Out with Tenants I agree a deposit deduction amount at that time and, if agreed (always has been so far) I go home and start the process to release funds the same day.

Landlord is not in the UK. Maybe that's why the delay? Not sure but we communicate on mails everyday and those are not nice mails
I vacated on 1st Feb so think I have around 3 months times to approach ADR? Landlord told me that I will have the figure by next week so if it doesn't happen then I will tell her that am planning to approach the ADR and see how things go from there. Also, she has told me that my deposit is protected with MyDeposits but I never received any paperwork on it. What kind of documents can I ask her to show on MyDeposits? Pardon my ignorance but its my first rented property in UK and am not so well versed with tenants rights and law here.

https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/tenants/get-started/check-your-deposit

Are you sure you didn't get any documentation about your deposit?
Perhaps in the first 30 days of your tenancy?

It could be important in changing the dynamics of the discussion (hugely in your favour).

Hi, the deposit protection scheme is mentioned in the tenancy agreement. But other than that I was not given anything like the deposit certificate. But I dug up my certificate number from the link given above. My landlord still hasn't told me the return amount. I will wait till Monday then will take some action. Will keep you folks posted on the outcome.

Please be wary of advice from a forum especially my own
Always do your own research

I think you should perhaps add a huge crowbar to your arsenal here.
You should perhaps highlight this issue with the agent and the landlord.
I don't really want to teach folks how to make trouble but in this case the landlord isn't (or rather based on your post) acting in good faith....

Legally the landlord is now on the hook to pay you up to three times the deposit if he doesn't furnish you with the correct documentation
It doesn't appear that he has in this case.
I'm sure if you mentioned this to them they might reconsider chasing you for the carpet (unless of course the carpet is worth more than three times the deposit).

If you want to know more then post again.

Best of luck.

Ok you got my interest now. Here is the thing - when I moved in I signed the tenancy agreement which was valid for only 3 months and I had to pay up 3 months extra rent since I didnt have a bank account and credit check couldnt be done (I was new to UK and its my first visit). The agreement was never renewed after 3 months inspite of me chasing the landlord on this. One of the clauses in the agreement states that the deposit is protected in MyDeposit and other than that I was not given any other documentation on the deposit part. I believe you ought to get a certificate or something? still am not sure. However, while vacating the flat my landlord did mention that the deposit is protected by MyDeposit. When Hippogriff posted the link I was able to dig up the certificate number from it and I think that the deposit is protected by MyDeposit. I have also written to the Gloucester Law Centre and awaiting their response on this (the flat was in Gloucester).

What kind of documentation the landlord is supposed to provide me with? Also, how long can the landlord take to notify me about the amount of deduction since its been 21 days since I vacated the flat?

No sense in going ballistic yet.

You said you were going to wait until Monday. I would do that. Just continue acting in good faith and things will hopefully turn out right in the end. What I would like you to do is politely and respectfully chase for the information on deposit deduction on Monday and hopefully get a more or less immediate response from your Landlord, who you say has been communicating via email to now.

If there's a reasonable response then there might be nothing more to do... as you probably just want to bring this episode to a close and move on.

However, if there is an unreasonable response - or even further delaying tactics - then I am sure that you would be happy to come back here for proper advice on what you are able to do as next steps.

I would not pre-empt anything just yet.

If I may also ask... what date did the deposit get paid to the Landlord (or Agent), what date did the tenancy start and what date does MyDeposits say the deposit was protected on? Please provide all 3 dates.

Rest assured, the deposit money is your money and the Landlord cannot just unilaterally take it all from the Deposit Scheme without your agreement. This may be part of the delay, the Landlord may be scratching their head about how to go about this.

The deposit was paid over period of 7 days and the final amount was paid on 10th Feb 2014 and the tenancy started on 13th Feb 2014. Never got any notification from MyDeposit.

A few more points:
You say "and I think that the deposit is protected by MyDeposit."
Why the doubt you have the certificate number now?

1. Is the landlord resident abroad? Or just on holiday?
This extract is from the mydeposit website....
""
Q. I do not live in the UK. Can I still join mydeposits?
No. Only landlords that permanently reside in the UK and can supply a registered UK postal address are eligible to join. We do accept Landlords that are temporarily living abroad for business purposes or members of the Armed Forces who are stationed on short stay foreign assignments.
""

It does seem odd you didn't get any notice from mydeposits
Maybe you changed email addresses or your mobile number?
Anyway you have a certificate number so you should be able to check yourself by logging in as a tenant.
You could call mydeposits to make sure it is there.
(Maybe the agent has secured it and not the landlord).
(Maybe it's in the insured scheme and the landlord has blown the cash)

Perhaps more than likely.....I am overly suspicious of what is about to unfold.

2. Check your tenancy agreement to see if there is a two or three page document stapled at the back regarding the deposit entitled "prescribed information".  Maybe you have more information than you realise.

3. By all means wait until Monday....see what happens.  I'd rather be prepared for a less than satisfactory response but I suppose you can always think about it after and email the landlord back...a day or so of further delay isn't the end of the world.

4. Just to be clear, you say you paid an "extra three months rent" I assume you mean you had to pay a deposit equal to three months rent? ( just checking as there would be a difference)

I do have the certificate number which I pulled out from the link above so am positive that it is protected. However, I never got any mail or message from MyDeposit. Am not sure who protected it, the agent or the landlord but I guess they may not have given my email address or phone number or maybe gave the wrong email address. Also, I read the MyDeposit website that it states that the tenant and the landlord should sign the certificate which didnt happen in my case. The landlord is a UK resident but goes abroad every now and then on business trips.
The extra 3 months rent was not part of the deposit. It was taken from me since I didnt have a bank account and they couldnt do a credit check. But I didnt have to pay the first 3 months rent anyway so that part got sorted.

Quote from: posty1978 on February 21, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
The deposit was paid over period of 7 days and the final amount was paid on 10th Feb 2014 and the tenancy started on 13th Feb 2014. Never got any notification from MyDeposit.

Doesn't the link you used to check the deposit is protected show a date it was protected?

Hi, have got some updates. Landlord emailed again this morning and sighted a number of issues in the flat but no final quote on deduction. She keeps sending me lenghty mails talking about a number of issues but have failed to give me a deduction amount so far. Now she says that she will tell me the final amount after 1.5 weeks as she is going on a 10 days holiday. Its been 22 days since I vacated the flat. I have however, very politely told her that am considering quite a few options including the ADR but havent taken any action yet. So far no response from her...

Sadly this appears to be headed wher I feared.

Posty can you answer HIPPOS question?
You've checked the tenancy agreement to make sure no further deposit information is included?
I suspect the agent will just direct you to the landlord?

Yes, I'd still like to know the 3 dates together... we are missing 1.

Anyway, start preparing here...

https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/tenants/get-started/register-a-dispute

Please note the 3 month time limit, which you are well within, so I'd not advocate starting right now. It doesn't since like you need this money to live, you just want what's yours back.

I dont have any more dates but have some recent updates. LL gave me the deep cleaning price today which I am ok with as they looked reasonable, she is yet to give me the invoice though. She also sent me a invoice of £70 which states that "carpet cleaning started and halted". Am not sure who halted the cleaning, whether its LL or the cleaning guys. She told me she will charge me approx £550 for replacing the carpet, she is waiting for a final quote from the carpet suppliers. I told her that I will pay a certain %age of it and not the whole amount and told her am contemplating dispute resolution. She is willing to fight it out with me through MyDeposit and told me that as a tenant I will lose out since she has all the right to charge me for the whole replacement cost.

My argument on this is that I was not given a chance to get it cleaned by pros since LL said she will get it cleaned herself. Also, the carpet was not new and had few faint stains when we moved. I had mentioned about these in the inventory report as well. Her argument is that she thought the carpet will not be so dirty and normal cleaning will take care hence, she said she will get it done herself. However, her cleaning agent told that she has to replace the carpet since its beyond cleaning stage. As per her and the agent the kind of food (we are Indian btw) we eat has made a lot of mess and left a lot of smell on the carpet which cannot be cleaned. Also, we tried to clean the carpet with bleach based products and that made the mess even nasty.

I would like to know -

1. If I raise a dispute with these arguments do I stand a chance to win?
2. If i lose will I be asked to pay more by the Adjudicator (more than what's qupoted by the LL)?
3. Is the dispute process completely online or we have to go for any face to face meeting?
4. Lastly in the light of the current situation is it wise to raise a dispute?

Hmmmm. Hang on.  Your bleach based comments are somewhat disconcerting.
Have you damaged the carpet beyond what might be considered reasonable wear and tear?
Dirty carpet is one thing and bleach stains is another.
Technically if the cost of replacement is £550 then the deduction should be less as the carpet wasn't new when you moved in.

Your questions:
There is no way anyone can tell whether you will win or not without seeing the carpet. So you are on your own on that one.
The landlord makes a claim (in this case £550(?)) the adjudicator decides to allow that deduction or not
No face to face meeting although I don't use Mydeposit but I assume it's the same as the others
If you feel you are right then always raise the dispute.

Well I used those carpet cleaners which you get from Sainsbury's / Wilko etc. What bothers me is I wanted to get the carpet cleaned professionaly before I move out but LL didnt let me do it. Secondly, she took advice from only one cleaner whereas I would have checked with few cleaners to get an idea what exactly needs to be done with the carpet. The cleaner whom she hired gave her a report stating that the carpet has bleach stains and needs to be replaced.

It could be a possibility that the carpet was getting damaged anyway since its an old one. Also, LL said that the previous owner before us spilled beer and dye on the carpet and she had to pay a good amount of money to get the carpet cleaned. I understand if its a new carpet I would have taken the cost of replacement on me but since its a old one why should I pay the whole amount?

Quote from: posty1978 on February 23, 2016, 10:54:48 PM
1. If I raise a dispute with these arguments do I stand a chance to win? Yes
2. If i lose will I be asked to pay more by the Adjudicator (more than what's qupoted by the LL)? No
3. Is the dispute process completely online or we have to go for any face to face meeting? Online
4. Lastly in the light of the current situation is it wise to raise a dispute? Sure, but you could've been more open from the outset

If we were talking about fair wear and tear then the Landlord would be due nothing... that is part-and-parcel of letting property. However, I think we all accept that we are talking about damage. In this kind of situation the Landlord is not due back the amount of money it takes to replace the item as though it was brand new. It's possible the Landlord doesn't understand this, or doesn't think you understand this so is trying it on.

If the carpet cost £1,000 when new that carpet has an expected lifetime.

Maybe it's 10 years (10 years is good because it helps with easier sums).

If the carpet was 5 years old when you moved in and everyone agrees it needed replacing when you moved out (because you're really dirty buggers) then the Landlord would be due 50% or 40%... not 100%... because the carpet has already had a useful life of 5 or 6 years out of its expected lifetime of 10 years. It's 40% by the way.

So if the Landlord is saying it will cost £550 to replace the carpet, then you will offer to pay a percentage of that - that's the approach the ADR folk will take. The Landlord can either agree to that, or take it to ADR and probably end up being disappointed.

If I was you, right now, I would be writing back to the Landlord with an offer to bring this matter to a close.

You understand the carpet needs replacing (let's say, for sake of argument, you do).
You understand the cost of replacing the carpet is £550.
You understand the carpet was not brand new when you moved in.
You understand the carpet would likely have an expected lifetime of blah, blah, blah...

Have a read of this document...

https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/sites/default/files/Guide%20to%20Deposits,%20Disputes%20and%20Damages.pdf

"In addition to seeking the most appropriate remedy, the landlord should not end up, either financially or materially, in a better position than he was at start of the tenancy, or than he would have otherwise been at the end of the tenancy after having allowed for fair wear and tear."

Page 10 even has a worked example for you. 

"In the rare circumstances where damage (to the worktop/carpet/mattress/item etc) is so extensive or severe as to affect the achievable rent level or market quality of the property, the most appropriate remedy might be replacement and to apportion costs according to the age and useful lifespan of the item. An example of how this might be calculated is set out below:

a) Cost of similar replacement carpet/item - £500.00
b) Actual age of existing carpet/item - 2 years
c) Average useful lifespan of that type of carpet/item - 10 years
d) Residual lifespan of carpet/item calculated as c) less b) - 8 years
e) Depreciation of value rate calculated as a) divided by c) - £50 per year
f) Reasonable apportionment cost to tenant calculated as d) times e) - £400.00"

Wow Hippogriff that is really useful.
I will tell the LL about this and see how she reacts...maybe make an offer she cant refuse
But she has gone on holiday lasy night and wont be back for the next 10 days so gotta wait and see what happens.
Thanks a mil btw

Ok I got quite a few nasty mails from the LL when I told her that I will pay a certain %age of the carpet replacement. She told me that the carpet has been "thrashed" over and its a term used by the carpet cleaners it seems. She also told me that she approached MyDeposit people and they said that its not necessary that I will win the case and may have to pay her the complete carpet replacement cost. I have given my arguments to her but this has been going on for quite some time now and am tired reading her unsavoury mails. I am positive now that I will take the ADR route and see what happens. Whether I win or lose I will at least have the satisfaction that I got somebody neutral to settle it for me. I completely pissed on the LL right now....aaarggghhhh

Forward the Landlord the scheme's PDF, point out the pertinent section, allow it to be digested (say 1 day?), then if your offer is not accepted raise the dispute. As said, you may even lose at ADR but at least that will be an objective, removed, third party... you will have lost nothing.

yeah I sent her the link to the PDF last night but she went ballistic after it and also went a bit personal on her mails. In fact she even said that she will not rent out to people like us with similar food habits (I gather she meant Indian) in the future. One thing I dont understand is that she is charging me for carpet replacement but also charged me 70 GBP as Abortive Carpet cleaning. I dont know what that means. But am tired with this mail war with her and dont wanna pursue this any further. She said she will return my balance deposit by Friday so lets see how much actually she returns before I do anything

See how much the Landlord attempts to return. When that happens the Deposit Scheme will get in touch and you will need to refuse it and raise a dispute, I imagine.

Of course the Landlord went ballistic - the document from the Deposit Scheme they chose to you use is clearly saying that what the Landlord is attempting to do is not right.

So how the Landlord can claim that the Deposit Scheme would rule in their favour is a little bit beyond me.

Anyway, your path forward is clear... let us know what happens as it happens.

The amount the Landlord decides on imminently might even be enough for you to roll over and accept it... you never know. I would not communicate further at this time and the Landlord might see sense in the coming day or two.

Do you know how old the carpet was at the time you moved in? The Landlord would need to be able to prove that with the ADR person - and it might be the case that it's even older than 10 years! If so, then the Landlord would - sadly - be probably due nothing. So the Landlord will need a receipt or a fitting invoice or something like that to prove when it was originally laid.

Apportionment is a very difficult idea for Landlords to get their head around because it feels incredibly unfair when a Tenant has damaged something to the point it needs replacing, so do try to have some sympathy with the Landlord... it's just that it's education that's needed here. However, getting personal in emails is not the way forward - please save those emails as evidence.

Inform the Landlord - if you like - via one last email today - that you will save all of the nasty and personal emails as evidence for the ADR process. That could send them further over the edge but it's a nice touch when people realise their nastiness might be available for other people to see. Is it pertinent? Probably not. But people do not like that and it is a tool in your armoury.

I had in one of the mails told her that I will bear a %age of the cost. I was and still am willing to bear 50% of the replacement cost but the tone of her mail has taken it in a different direction now. I had asked her once how old the carpet was when we moved in because the fibres looked quite rough to me. She didnt tell me how old it was but I got to know that the flat was about 10 years old. So am guessing the carpet is as old as the flat or maybe 1-2 years less. When I used to visit my friend's house I found that their carpets were quite fluffy and dense but in our flat it was not.

Am done writing mails to her and in all of my mails I had tried to reason with her and repeatedly told her that I will bear a %age of the cost but she didnt relent.

The landlord paid me the deposit today and she has deducted 905 GBP. She has provided me a deep cleaning bill of 300 GBP so that leaves me with 605 GBP. I believe she has deducted this amount for carpet replacement but hasnt provided any bill or any quote from the carpet fitters. I have given her a deadline till Monday to produce the invoice for this and then I will take it to ADR. Have informed her as well that I will put it under dispute come what may. BTW I havent received any notification from MyDeposit on this on whether I accept this amount or not? Any ideas why?

I was checking the dispute process on MyDeposit and came across this disclaimer -

ADR is an independent and quick method of resolving your deposit dispute. A fully trained, impartial adjudicator will have conduct of your case and make a decision based on evidence submitted by you and your landlord / agent. We will inform your landlord that you wish the matter to be resolved by ADR. The landlord will inform us whether they agree to ADR. As this deposit dispute has been raised, they must lodge the disputed amount with us. If you do not agree to the use of ADR the dispute will still be raised but you will have to obtain a Court Order for us to release any money. Court proceedings can be issued through your local County Court. You may wish to seek independent legal advice.

What if my landlord does not accept to go with ADR? Will I have to get a court order in that case?