UK Landlord Forum / Life

Hello

Hopefully someone can answer this as I'm rather confused with what I've been told by varying parties.

So we started our tenancy in July 2020 and it was a yearly contract. Ran out in 2021. We were given a deposit protection certificate for this (via insured scheme).

After that we signed another year long contract with the same agent and landlord for the same rent - this expired in 2022. No deposit protection certificate given.

Another year long contract signed in 2022, expired in 2023 - no certificate given. Rent was increased for this term.

Rolling tenancy contract signed in 2023 - no deposit protection certificate provided. Rent was increased again for this term.

The only certificate we have is from 2020-2021 and the end date on tjag is stated as 'ends on or after 19/7/2021).

Now, a friend who has gone through this has said the deposit isn't considered protected as it should have been renewed for each year - which it wasn't as we have no documents for this.

TDS have said the protection is still active as the 'end date doesn't matter.' The lady who spoke to me over the phone said she wasn't sure and had to pause multiple times to ask a senior colleague who then told her that as there had been no material change in the tenancy, the certificate was still valid.

Any advice as to whether deposit is really protected ?

Ta!

Your deposit doesn't need to be reprotected each time there is a new tenancy. There may be a need, depending on the scheme to update the end date of the insurance (but in most schemes, that seems to apply to agents protecting insurance, not landlords).
There's no need to be given a new set of Prescribed Information either (assuming that's what you mean by certificate).
So I think your friend is, most likely, wrong.

You should have been given a new copy of the How to Rent booklet if there was a new tenancy and it had been changed since the last time you were given it.

Why is this considered urgent?

Can you not just log in to the appropriate Scheme's site and find your Deposit (or not)?

Anyway, my reading of the situation persists - just as it did before - but only from the Scheme's own website(s). Note the TDS - In the Insured scheme, a new deposit protection charge is payable if: and one situation is A fixed term tenancy is renewed, even if the renewal is on the same terms as the previous tenancy. and MyDeposits - If a new fixed term tenancy is granted then the deposit protection must be renewed/re-protected and the relevant fee paid - and note the mention of fixed term, you have a mix, currently on SPT.

In my Landlord head - new fee == new admin. == new Deposit, That's why I'd always play it safe... but I don't issue renewals... I'd still like to see this written in black-and-white in some Act or what-have-you.

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 14, 2023, 09:05:57 AM
Why is this considered urgent?

Can you not just log in to the appropriate Scheme's site and find your Deposit (or not)?

Anyway, my reading of the situation persists - just as it did before - but only from the Scheme's own website(s). Note the TDS - In the Insured scheme, a new deposit protection charge is payable if: and one situation is A fixed term tenancy is renewed, even if the renewal is on the same terms as the previous tenancy. and MyDeposits - If a new fixed term tenancy is granted then the deposit protection must be renewed/re-protected and the relevant fee paid - and note the mention of fixed term, you have a mix, currently on SPT.

In my Landlord head - new fee == new admin. == new Deposit, That's why I'd always play it safe... but I don't issue renewals... I'd still like to see this written in black-and-white in some Act or what-have-you.

Thanks for your input. Urgent because we are vacating the property now and the landlord has no plans to return the deposit (long story, but the gist is they've left off repairing the leaky roof and the rising damp and are trying to get us to pay for redecoration etc).

Like you say - TDS say it should be renewed on the renewal of each tenancy - so ours was renewed twice - the current became a rolling contract this year - so this is two separate renewals (not three as the last one became a rolling tenancy).

We've been renting for a while (through better LLs and agencies in the past) and they always sent a new certificate / PI when a new contract was signed , regardless of the terms being the same - which is also what the TDS site says.

But that's not urgent. You commenced the tenancy in 2020.

You have 6 years to bring a valid Deposit protection kind of claim - you don't need to do it as you're vacating. In fact, many of us would advise you don't... let them try what they want to try and - then - if appropriate the Landlord can receive a letter out of the blue when they least expect it.

Rest easy.

To be clear - if you disagree with the Deposit deductions the first thing you do is inform the Landlord you intend to raise a Dispute with the Scheme's formal process. Insured scheme noted.

That knowledge alone can often make a Landlord think twice about their proposed deductions (especially if all of the Deposit).

Then, at any future time within the coming few years, you can bring a case for non-protection if the information backs this up.

Is that more clear?

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 14, 2023, 09:20:07 AM
But that's not urgent. You commenced the tenancy in 2020.

You have 6 years to bring a valid Deposit protection kind of claim - you don't need to do it as you're vacating. In fact, many of us would advise you don't... let them try what they want to try and - then - if appropriate the Landlord can receive a letter out of the blue when they least expect it.

Rest easy.

Thanks again! It's urgent (to us at least) in order to know who protects the deposit and how we go from here - if the TDS doesn't protect it, then the dispute process is long hard and we are , frankly, in need of the deposit.

I guess what I've clocked from this is there's no black and white answer to this (unless TDS writes back to me otherwise, and I'll let you know if I they do) and I need to look at making other arrangements to get the money I thought I'd use from the deposit etc.

You can't be in the position of needing the Deposit - what if the deduction are valid?

That doesn't make sense... you appear (by what you write) to have gone and assumed that the Deposit is due you - but it might not be. You don't get to conclude that. Either it's done by agreement or by an objective third party trained in these matters who'll make a decision based on supplied evidence. One thing you say that I reckon I agree with is that you want to avoid that lengthy non-guaranteed process. I would still see what happens... if the Deposit is held back for reasons you don't agree with... threaten (at least) going through the Deposit Scheme's Dispute process... and gauge Landlord's reaction from that point.

It's not difficult to check each Scheme's site for your Deposit. There's even a sticky in here that should work. You'll either get a record returned or you won't, won't you? If you key in the details of your last renewal and no record comes back then isn't that your answer? And, if you try to raise a Dispute, I bet the Scheme will come back straight away and tell you that your Deposit isn't protected if that's the case, and that opens up a whole new avenue. I think you need to sit back and wait-and-see.

Your Landlord holds the cash physically anyway, for the time-being.

Quote from: gamer379 on August 14, 2023, 09:24:16 AMI guess what I've clocked from this is there's no black and white answer to this...

Well... I think there is. I think it's clear. And it's how I've always worked - but I dot the is and cross the ts when it comes to Deposits.

Now the jpkeates is very clever and experienced in things of this nature - so, while surprised, I am fully prepared to be convinced that I've been spending more £22.50s that I need to over the years. It might be the case that contradictory information exists on webpages found on the Internet.

Who'd've thought it?

Quote from: Hippogriff on August 14, 2023, 09:49:02 AMNow the jpkeates is very clever and experienced in things of this nature - so, while surprised, I am fully prepared to be convinced that I've been spending more £22.50s that I need to over the years. It might be the case that contradictory information exists on webpages found on the Internet.

Thanks for the kind words.

The costs for insurance are specific to the scheme, and some of them might charge for renewals/extensions.
So I can't help with the £22.50s!

But since the deregulation act (2015), any tenancies that began after 2007 no longer need to be reprotected or have PI issued if the deposit was previously protected, remains protected, and there's a replacement tenancy (including an SPT) but the landlord, tenant and property are the same.

s215B Housing Act 2004 as amended.

Quote from: gamer379 on August 14, 2023, 09:24:16 AMI guess what I've clocked from this is there's no black and white answer to this (unless TDS writes back to me otherwise, and I'll let you know if I they do)

There is a black and white answer.
It used to be an issue, but it stopped being a grey area in 2015.

Thanks for this. Do you reckon the particular things I've seen on the websites for the TDS and MyDeposits are just out of date then, or are they specifically talking about their fees and the concept of "remains protected" under their own terms and conditions? Because - and this is something that I have just now tried out myself on a live site...

I can log in to MyDeposits, and click Show All Deposits... I see a list of properties, deposits and their status... I can select a currently Active Deposit and there's options like Unprotect, View Certificate, View Unprotection Form, Renew Protection and View Receipt. There's a little i (for information) at the side of each option... if you hover over it for Renew Protection it very clearly says this (I quote):

If your existing tenant(s) remain in the property and you issue a new fixed-term, you must renew their Deposit Protection, pay a new protection fee and serve the new Prescribed Information to the Tenant(s). The previous deposit protection will no longer be valid once the new fixed-term has started.

And - the most important part of this particular user interface - there's simply no button whereby I can just change the date of the end of the tenancy. So each one has a date, a date that appears immutable and when that dates comes it either ends, or goes SPT.

And, following on from that, if the OP goes onto the relevant Scheme's site where they believe their deposit is protected... and the Landlord protected it in 2020 and then just left it... do you reckon it'll come back as being protected or as "no record found"?

The TDS website says the opposite "The deposit does not need to be re-protected nor prescribed information served again on renewal (or at the start of a statutory periodic tenancy) as long as:
- The tenant(s), landlord(s) and the premises remain the same; and
- The deposit is held in the same scheme"
Which is aligned with how I read the legislation.

They do require a new protection if there's a new fixed term and you use their "Pay as You go" product  (I don't know what that is).

Another argument for not insuring deposits for me!

Further to this, as it's actually got my interest... I looked back at the most recent email MyDeposits sent me - telling me I needed to tell them whether a tenancy with a fixed term was going to be renewed, end or transition to SPT... in that email they clearly state the default action (if I elected to do nothing) and that was - You have 30 days from the end of the fixed term tenancy agreement to update the status of the deposit protection with my|deposits, otherwise we will assume the protection is no longer required and automatically unprotect the deposit.

This wasn't in 2015, but actually at the beginning of this year.

So if I told them I was going to renew they would force me to pay the fee and issue new Prescribed Information. The only way I can avoid this is by either telling them the tenancy has ended or it transitioned to SPT. If I did nothing - from their perspective - the Deposit becomes unprotected, it doesn't just maintain its status. So wouldn't that would fall foul of the Deregulation Act's "previously protected, remains protected" line? It was previously protected - all in order - but it doesn't remain protected. So is that an "or" as opposed to an "and"? I'll be totally transparent - it doesn't feel right.

Quote from: jpkeates on August 14, 2023, 12:51:22 PM
The TDS website says the opposite...

Very interesting. The TDS was one of the ones I looked at above, which implied it was required.

A specific Scheme's terms and conditions are obviously subservient to an Act of Parliament, I assume.

TDS again - In the TDS Insured for Landlord's scheme, if the tenancy enters a new fixed term, the deposit would need to be re-protected and the protection fee paid again. For example, if the tenant didn't want to move to a periodic tenancy, but instead wanted to remain in the property for another fixed term of 1 year, then the landlord would need to re-protect the deposit.

OP - have you used the Scheme's online checker to get the answer from there and can you share that with us? It is not onerous.

I think the schemes are using their interpretation to keep the premium's coming in.
There's no harm in issuing the PI again (other than possibly confusing the tenant), but I don't see that anything can have changed to make the issue necessary unless there's been a material change in the tenancy agreement, because the PI refers to the tenancy agreement.

The legislation says:
"[when ]a new shorthold tenancy comes into being on the coming to an end of the original tenancy or a tenancy that replaces the original tenancy (directly or indirectly), [And] the new tenancy replaces the original tenancy (directly or indirectly), and when the new tenancy comes into being, the deposit continues to be held in connection with the new tenancy, in accordance with the same authorised scheme as when the requirements of section 213(5) [to give the Prescribed Information] and (6)(a) [in the prescribed format] ] were last complied with by the landlord in relation to the deposit, [then] In their application to the new tenancy, the requirements of section 213(3) [which is the deposit protection requirement], (5) and (6) are treated as if they had been complied with by the landlord in relation to the deposit.

And

For the purposes of this section, a tenancy replaces an earlier tenancy if, the landlord and tenant immediately before the coming to an end of the earlier tenancy are the same as the landlord and tenant at the start of the new tenancy, and the premises let under both tenancies are the same or substantially the same."

So as long as the scheme's the same, as well as the tenant, property and landlord, the individual policy or reference within the scheme doesn't matter.

I've not quoted everything, but I don't think I've missed out anything meaningful.
And, I've specifically checked previously that this is OK for section 21 purposes with a legal expert on the subject, so I can't imagine how it can be an issue for deposit protection purposes.
The scheme rules might mean you have to pay another premium and create a new insurance record, but I don't see any reason to issue the PI again.

I do not suffer from this problem, of course, because like a sensible, prudent, model Landlord should, I have a fixed term that is followed on by a SPT... so I was joking about all the £22.50s.

I am genuinely curious about the disconnect here, though. However, I also realise in the OP's first post he was told that it was still considered protected. I mean, the myDeposits guff is pretty categorically not agreeing, right, and that's not some out-of-date archived PDF I found from 2011 or something - that's live, on their site, right now... as an instruction to Landlords. In fact, they go further - they auto-unprotect the Deposit as their default action 30 days after the end date (which cannot be changed) if they're not explicitly told that it's gone SPT.

Thanks everyone for the detailed responses.
Here's the response from TDS :

' Thank you for your email.

If there has been a renewal contract signed then the agent or landlord needs to update these changed from their account. Ideally a new certificate should be given to the tenants to show these updates but it is not something TDS can police.'

Terribly sorry I might be super late replying as we are in the middle of moving. Shall keep you posted about how things go when we move / the outcome.

In a previous tenancy when we renewed our yearly contract, they would redo the protection (insured) with TDS and resend the certificate. In my own health battles, I didn't chase this with my current agent but then again, I've blindingly trusted them all along.

So it comes down to : new contract , therefore inform TDS of new contract and new protection certificate because otherwise they assume we have moved to a rolling contract if they are not updated.

Also - having just gone through my own contract, it states that it is the agent's duty to keep it protected via TDS - I've still checked with other schemes to give them the benefit of the doubt but they didn't protect it elsewhere either.

So TDS think I've been on a rolling contract since 2021 .. which is incorrect.

It probably means that the deposit was protected though.
Although TDS might have investigated had anyone made a claim.

The process used to be different for landlords and agents (I think), agents had to renew and landlords didn't.