UK Landlord Forum / Life

2.5  years ago, due to house flooding the insurance company relocated me to rent on a short let basis an alternative accommodation, it was originally 2 months that kept getting renewed to 6 months, as this was a short term let and I had my hands full fighting the insurance company, and builders who were repairing my house I offered to pay higher rent in return  that the landlord kept all bills in their name and paid the utilities / tax. The terms in the contract states that landlord should pay all bills including council tax,
Here is the term in the signed agreement (through letting agency)

QuoteThe Tenant shall pay to the Landlord or Agent £xxx0.00 per calendar month, payable in advance to include the payment of gas, electricity and water supplied to the Premises and for the payment of council tax and television license during the Term.

But now two and a half years later I get a first chaser from the council about the payment as the landlord is refusing to pay it. I replied to the first one including the explanation and attaching the tenancy agreement that was signed by the landlord, but it looks like the council is adamant I should pay the council tax, even though I paid higher rent so that would be covered. They now sent me the second and final chaser before I get summoned.

Anyone had such issues with Landlord?  Who do I need to contact to complain about the landlord?  Do I need to get a lawyer?  How do I halt the council from taken legal action against me until I get the landlord to pay them, or at least pay me to to pay them?
Thanks in advance.

It is quite possible that the council are trying it on.I would tell them that you will contest this most strongly,and also write to your M.P to complain.I had something similar years ago.My tenants are responsible for all utilities and tax,but one had arrears with c.t.One particular little creep in the council offices really tried to put pressure on me,including trying to add it to the council tax of my own personal residence.I sent copies of the lease,to no avail.LIkewise he ignored phone calls from my L.A.Only when I said I was getting the M.P involved did it stop.Get the names of anyone you speak to as well.Good Luck-you clearly don't owe this.

Thank you for replying, according to the council it's my liability to pay CT, then am supposed to take landlord to small claims court.
Anyone gone through small claims process? I think maybe I should to also put pressure on the landlord to pay, but never gone through small claims. Are the charges expensive?

The default position that any Council would take is that the person occupying a property is liable for Council Tax. If you think about it then it's the correct stance to take, right?, because anything else is really an agreement between third parties. All the Council want is for the appropriate tax to be paid. By chasing the occupier they aren't doing anything wrong and - in fact - are doing the easiest and most sensible thing open to them.

If the Landlord (ostensibly responsible for Council Tax) was completely outside their jurisdiction, for example, then what do you think they should do... just forget it? No.

Saying that the Tenant in this case - the occupant (the person who's in receipt of the public services the Council is providing - bins, lighting etc.) - is responsible for the payment of this tax is entirely correct. Then it's for the Tenant to take up the issue with their Landlord for reimbursement.

Just my two pennies... but I'm dead right. Anyone could write a document saying "you're not responsible for this tax, I am", then get another person to write another document saying "you're not responsible for this tax, I am", then get another person to write another document saying "you're not responsible for this tax, I am" and on forever, the Council would end up chasing a never-ending trail. It can't be that way. The occupant is liable. QED.

Quote from: TigerLily on March 07, 2018, 12:37:44 AMHow do I halt the council from taken legal action against me...

You pay your Council Tax.

Hippogriff-are you saying then that any clauses added to a lease have no legal force whatsoever?  I see quite a few properties to let,with rent to include council tax,or utilities.These are not house share,or HMOs.In this case Tigerlilly was paying a higher rent to include such bills.Does this mean the landlord should be reimbursing the amount she has overpaid? What is the situation with HMOs where the landlord resides elsewhere-surely they would charge a rent to include tax,and then pay it to the council ?   

It's more that two parties to an agreement (the landlord and the tenant) cannot, by virtue of that agreement, bind a third party (the Council), to act in a particular way. As far as the council is concerned, the occupant of the property is the taxpayer and it is to the occupant of the property that the tax demand will be sent. If that demand is then passed by the tenant to the landlord and the landlord settles it in good time, then it's all one to the council - money is money, after all. If, however, the amount remains outstanding, then the council will pursue the taxpayer, because they're not bound by a contract that they're not party to.

Are the council chasing council tax for the entire period of the tenancy or just the current tax year?

Quote from: heavykarma on March 07, 2018, 04:18:06 PMHippogriff-are you saying then that any clauses added to a lease have no legal force whatsoever?  I see quite a few properties to let,with rent to include council tax,or utilities.These are not house share,or HMOs.In this case Tigerlilly was paying a higher rent to include such bills.Does this mean the landlord should be reimbursing the amount she has overpaid? What is the situation with HMOs where the landlord resides elsewhere-surely they would charge a rent to include tax,and then pay it to the council ?

If it's paid by the Landlord I'm sure the Council will not care where the money comes from. If it's not paid, then they'll go after the occupant, the person consuming the services that are being paid for. Why would the Council be concerned about any side agreement the Tenant may say they have? I'm not saying these arrangements cannot work... I'm saying in this particular instance it doesn't look to be working. I am not saying the Tenant may not have fallen victim of a rogue Landlord - they may. None of that matters to the Council, though... "computer says no", right? The debt is due - the only person to properly chase is the occupant of the property.

The Tenant needs to pay up and then follow-up with the Landlord - or try to be cute and withhold rent to the amount owed. There are obvious ways and means - but not paying your Council Tax is one of the few 'crimes', at this kind of noise level, that can end up with you behind bars... so why risk it?

Quote from: Simon Pambin on March 07, 2018, 05:46:42 PMIt's more that two parties to an agreement (the landlord and the tenant) cannot, by virtue of that agreement, bind a third party (the Council), to act in a particular way. As far as the council is concerned, the occupant of the property is the taxpayer and it is to the occupant of the property that the tax demand will be sent. If that demand is then passed by the tenant to the landlord and the landlord settles it in good time, then it's all one to the council - money is money, after all. If, however, the amount remains outstanding, then the council will pursue the taxpayer, because they're not bound by a contract that they're not party to.

Are the council chasing council tax for the entire period of the tenancy or just the current tax year?

Yeah, what he said... smart guy.

Quote from: heavykarma on March 07, 2018, 04:18:06 PMHippogriff-are you saying then that any clauses added to a lease have no legal force whatsoever?

Let's be brutally honest... most tenancy agreements rely wholly on both parties playing nice.

God damn it-Hippogriff is right again! Seriously,thank you Simon and Hippogriff,yet more legal information acquired free of charge from this forum. It sounds Tigerlilly as if you will have to go  to the small claims court.You can do this yourself online,fairly simple and the fees are based on the amount claimed.
I am puzzled by a few things.The normal routine is that the landlord/agent informs the utilities and c.t.when someone  moves in/out.The bills are then put in the new persons name.Had you been getting council tax bills while living there,addressed to you? Did you query this? Have you asked the landlord why they have refused to pay the tax? The time delay is odd,my council are like terriers with a bone when it comes to tax.

You could try asking the council to suspend action.You would be advised to write to the landlord,informing of your intentions, unless the money is reimbursed within a certain time (say 14 days?) No one wants a CCJ against their name. Good Luck,what a rotten episode to deal with.









I hope the landlord will cough up,if your evidence is sound they will not want a CCJ. You could try asking the council to suspend action until you get a court result,but as Hippogriff says,the risk of prison is there.On the face of it,the landlord is

Quote from: heavykarma on March 08, 2018, 09:24:19 AMGod damn it-Hippogriff is right again!

Not "God damn it"... "Yipee".

No one likes a smartarse,a little modesty would not go amiss.

HIPPOGRIFF , thank you for the advice,  but I object on you implying I don't want to pay the council tax, I paid it to the landlord. 
However I understand your explanation that the council is not obliged to chase the landlord and its up to me to do so.
The amount is about £900 so its not really a small trivial amount, I asked the council to send me the original bill to see if they added further interest on it or not - I never received the original bill.

Again anyone have links / details about how I start the small claims procedure against the landlord?
I should write a letter to him detailing my intention of taking him to court, and I apologise for asking as I never had to go through this in the past, but if anyone have sample letter  or links/ some instructions on how to to write this letter, this would be helpful

Thanks to everyone who answered and gave me an insight.

Oh one more detail ..
The AST I had was a shortlet agreement, does this make a difference?
Also  on the council site it states cases where the landlord would be liable for CT:

<<<Sometimes the owner of a property will have to pay instead of the person who lives there. The owner is liable to pay if:
the residents are staying in the property temporarily and their main home is somewhere else>>

I was resident there temporarily and spent most of my day at my flooded home trying to sort out the insurance issues and builders...
I wonder if I can argue on the above basis?

In and of itself, the fact that you were out of the property for most of the day won't get you very far: most people tend to be out of their properties for most of the day, (trying to earn enough money to pay the council tax bill, for a start!) However, if you can show that you were still paying the full council tax on your own property whilst it was uninhabitable, that might provide a bit of leverage.

Let me see if I've understood the chronology correctly:

Two and a half years ago, you were flooded out of your own home. Your insurer found you temporary accommodation, initially for two months but it ultimately ended up being a total of six months.

During that time you heard nothing from the council and therefore assumed it was being taken care of in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreement. Was the tenancy agreement between you and the landlord or between the landlord and the insurer? Did the landlord use an agent or deal directly with you? (I could well believe that this all down to a lack of communication between agent and landlord!) Did you pay the rent yourself and get reimbursed by the insurers or did it go straight from them to the landlord?

After six months or so you moved back into your repaired home and, as far as you were concerned, that was the end of the matter.

Then, a couple of years later, you get a chasing letter out of the blue from the council - was it sent to you at your own home? It makes you wonder what they've been doing for the past couple of years - either arguing the toss with the landlord or sending shouty letters to the wrong address, presumably. They should be able to provide you a copy of the original council tax demand, which would give you a clue as to where it was sent.

Details on how to make a claim for monies owed can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money
...and here: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/

Does your home insurance policy include legal expenses cover? If so, it might be worth contacting to see if it would cover legal fees for something like this.

Quoten and of itself, the fact that you were out of the property for most of the day won't get you very far: most people tend to be out of their properties for most of the day, (trying to earn enough money to pay the council tax bill, for a start!) However, if you can show that you were still paying the full council tax on your own property whilst it was uninhabitable, that might provide a bit of leverage.

Yes agreed, I did have a full time job on top of having to deal with fighting with insurance and later supervising builders ... at the end I had to take 2 months unpaid leave to deal with it all... it was very stressful and nearly gave me a nervous breakdown.

QuoteLet me see if I've understood the chronology correctly:

Two and a half years ago, you were flooded out of your own home. Your insurer found you temporary accommodation, initially for two months but it ultimately ended up being a total of six months.

During that time you heard nothing from the council and therefore assumed it was being taken care of in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreement.

Correct  ... I shouldn't have assumed as while in the temp accommodation I got a chaser for TV license, but at the time all I did is forward it to the landlord who sorted it out immediately

QuoteWas the tenancy agreement between you and the landlord or between the landlord and the insurer?

Did the landlord use an agent or deal directly with you? (I could well believe that this all down to a lack of communication between agent and landlord!)

My insurer used Country Wide to find a temporary accommodation,   then Country Wide found the temp accommodation (flat)  which was advertised by another estate agent on behalf of the landlord.   The flat was occupied by the landlord before me moving into it, he just bought a new home not too far from the flat and wanted to rent it, so he was a first time landlord.
Country wide insisted the contract should be in my name and landlord name as I was living in it,  when they told me this, this is what drove me to insist that the rent should be short-let and it should be be inclusive of all bills,   hence the landlord increased the advertised rent to almost double, plus took 2 months rent in advance to cover for all bills and rent.

QuoteDid you pay the rent yourself and get reimbursed by the insurers or did it go straight from them to the landlord?

The insurer paid country wide who paid the landlord.

QuoteAfter six months or so you moved back into your repaired home and, as far as you were concerned, that was the end of the matter.

Then, a couple of years later, you get a chasing letter out of the blue from the council - was it sent to you at your own home?

Yes that's correct,  I got a first reminder chase letter sent to me at my own home.. never saw the original bill

QuoteIt makes you wonder what they've been doing for the past couple of years - either arguing the toss with the landlord or sending shouty letters to the wrong address, presumably. They should be able to provide you a copy of the original council tax demand, which would give you a clue as to where it was sent.

After I got the first reminder I called the council and they told me someone provided them with a rental agreement that proves I occupied the flat for those 6 months,   the only person who would have provided that would be the landlord... so he is aware of it and I am assuming they have first chased the existing tenant then the landlord for it... I again sent them a copy of the tenancy agreement highlighting the terms for which the landlord should be paying all bills including C.T    I contacted the landlord and he just wanted to scheme with me on how we can both get away with not paying the CT (i.e. claim I paid full tax for my own home) I was alarmed, but politely told him him I will send the contract and the terms in the contract to the council and see what they say... he just sighed and ended the call... so I am assuming he has been battling with them regarding this and finally blamed it on me. 
After the second reminder I tried to contact him twice with him not replying or texting me that he will call me but never does.  I have his telephone number and address but not his email.

I have contacted my insurance, after the flooding repairs my insurance became sky high, and I was unable to take legal advise on top, I am paying about £170 a month, I tried to find other insurance companies but found non that would insure me due to the high  claim I had to repair the water damage from all burst pipes under the concrete floors.

I called countrywide, they  re-read the contract they agreed it should be the landlord liability but told me basically am on my own as this is a contract between me and the landlord and they can't interfere.

At the end of my tenancy two years ago, the landlord sacked the agency that was managing his property,  and started managing it by himself.

Thanks for the details on small claims procedure.  And thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Quote from: TigerLily on March 08, 2018, 07:20:21 PM
HIPPOGRIFF , thank you for the advice,  but I object on you implying I don't want to pay the council tax, I paid it to the landlord.

No-one implied you didn't want to pay your Council Tax - I was intending to be unequivocal that the only decision for you to make (in my opinion) is for you to pay your Council Tax. The fact that you believe you may have paid some monies to someone else for them to pay it on your behalf is here nor there, truly. The Council has not been paid the tax due and you, yes - you, are the consumer of the services the Council is providing.

Pay the Council Tax then work other angles to be reimbursed.

Your wonderings if you can fight this by stating you weren't actually there for most of the day is an incredible notion to me. You need to get some clear thinking for all of this. In my view you appear to be making this complex by trying to use distraction techniques to avoid paying what is due. Action 1 - pay the Council Tax and get them off your back. Action 2 - everything else. Does the whole thing sound moral? No, of course not - you've likely been hoodwinked by a Landlord who saw an opportunity and took it (if he's a first-timer one suspects it's not something he does all the time). All you have at the moment is a piece of paper between you and your Landlord saying the rent you paid included the Council Tax. That's between you and your Landlord. As you have found out - it's not in the Council's interests to help you (you're by far the easiest target for them to chase) and your Insurance Company won't get involved.

The only other choice - I think - is not to pay, eventually go to Court and be prepared to put that piece of paper in front of the Court. It would be nice if you have your own payment records, but you won't have. I'd not like to take that chance. I have no desire to go to Court, ever. Councils can be blinkered in their approach - but, in this case, I also happen to think they're going about it correctly. I suspect you do too, it will just feel v. unjust - but it's not the Council you should be aggrieved with, of course.

HIPPOGRIFF, thanks again for your opinion,  now you said  your 2 pennies you can rest in peace.

I FYI I have been in contact with citizens advice bureau,  on the contrary to your advice they advised me not to pay, but lodge complaints, demand the original bills which they never sent to me,  I was advised if I paid I will certainly lose all my rights, and my case would be closed.

Anyway, thanks again for your opinion, its a valid one

There are effectively two issues here: firstly, whether council tax was due for the period that you were in rented accommodation and, secondly, who is ultimately responsible for paying it.

The first issue isn't helped by the delay in bringing the charge to your attention. If a demand had turned up during the period you were in the rented property, it would have been so much easier to query it with the council and/or pass it on to your landlord for payment in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreement. As it was, you found yourself  thrust into unfamiliar and distressing circumstances and it would be unreasonable to assume that you had a detailed knowledge of the finer points of local government taxation: as far as you were concerned, it was being taken care of by those with greater expertise or, if it was not, you could reasonably expect any problems to come to light at the time, rather than two years later.

I suspect it may have been the case that your landlord wasn't too clued up on any of this either, and didn't inform the council that you'd moved in (and/or didn't make inquiries about whether a tenant in your circumstances would be liable to council tax). Presumably he must have been paying the council tax himself prior to that (possibly at a lower rate for an empty property, depending on the council). Then, at some later date, the council comes to him for money and he tells them that you were a tenant for six months and all the finer nuance of the situation is lost.

It wouldn't surprise me if the agent incorporated the term about the rent covering council tax and utilities without emphasizing it to the landlord. It's not wildly uncommon for agents to be more focused on securing a tenant (and therefore their fees) than they are on keeping the people they work for in the loop, so it may be that the landlord genuinely didn't realize he was responsible for the tax or, faced with a big bill he wasn't expecting after the rent has stopped coming in, simply pointed the council in your direction in the hope that it would make the problem go away as far as he was concerned.

Anyway, two years down the line you're getting shoutygrams from the council. Given that it's taken them two years to get this far, I doubt they'll do much in the next two weeks, at their busiest time of the year, particularly now that you've opened up a dialogue with them. As Citizens' Advice say, get hold of the actual council tax demand and go from there. If it eventually falls to you in the first instance to pay the bill then so be it. At least you should then have something in writing from the council to the effect that the tax is due for the period in question. With that and your copy of the tenancy agreement, you can send a letter before action to your erstwhile landlord who, if he has any sense, will fold like Superman on laundry day and cough up. If not, it's a clear-cut case: he agreed in writing to pay the Council Tax, the bill has come to you, and you've gone out of your way to confirm that it is valid.